New Finnish Study on 'gender affirming' care and suicide ideation

[sunshinellight]

I haven't seen a thread on this so linking it here
https://nypost.com/2024/02/24/opinion/a-finnish-study-is-changing-how-we-approach-trans-kids/

A major new study out of Finland found that providing cross-sex hormones and gender-transition surgeries to adolescents and young adults didn’t appear to have any significant effect on suicide deaths.

Link to the study is in the article.

Thanks for the link, a bit too late to start reading tonight, but wondered if this is a new study or part of what seems to have been ongoing examination within Finland and trans treatment:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4289631-Finland-points-the-way

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4306294-Finland

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4732993-310123-interesting-twitter-thread-from-leor-sapir-about-finnish-paediatric-bodys-position

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4931632-gender-affirming-care-is-dangerous-i-know-because-i-helped-pioneer-it-article-in-the-fp

Earlier discussion of that study.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5011365-trans-youth-not-at-elevated-risk-of-suicide?

Thank you.

For anyone not already aware, the Finnish expert on adolescents who believe they are transgender, Dr Kaltiala who will have contributed to this, will be one of the many excellent speakers here in the U.K. :
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5010287-royal-college-of-gps-forced-into-u-turn-after-cancelling-gender-critical-doctors-conference?reply=133184298

It is possible to attend on-line. There is a thread about that too.

Dr Kaltiala’s expertise about children/adolescents needs to be as widely known about as Dr Cass and Dr Peter Bell’s. Teachers especially need to know about it.

Here is more about the talks.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5015212-online-tickets-available-for-anyone-to-attend-1-day-conference-on-sex-and-gender-in-healthcare?latest=1

I rarely comment here, but some things cannot be allowed to pass without comment. Regrettably, this is a fundamentally flawed study, over controlled, perhaps deliberately so, apparently intended to come to a particular result.

US journalist Erin Read has provided a careful analysis of the difficulties with the study.

Dr Kaltiala’s work is controversial and subject to many complaints in Finland.

it is, however, much supported by those who would denigrate and restrict trans healthcare.

Given that Dr Kaltiala’s position will chime with that of many commentators here, I am not surprised by your comment and I am sure that my comment will not be popular.

But be aware that the study is far from uncontroversial and makes errors that undermine the validity of its conclusions.

Every study that casts doubt on “gender affirming care” is controversial in TRA Land, and every individual that casts doubt on “gender affirming care” is a controversial person in TRA Land, so why should the “doubts” cast by “journalists” 🤣 be any different in this case?

This study is a vital study. It’s an inconvenient truth to trans activism that Finland has trod the path, realised the harm and stepped back. One thing I will never understand from TRAs is the sheer desperation for there to be a suicide problem and the sheer desperation to want to medically transition children. It’s such dangerous activism: to inflate a harm that doesn’t exist in order to carry out a harm that isn’t required. Surely it’s better for everyone if children aren’t killing themselves and do not need medical treatments. Why are TRAs so desperate for the opposite to be true?

What are Erin Reed's qualifications that make them an expert in this area? Just being trans?

I'm looking forward to reading the uncontroversial, unflawed, unbiased studies that you are going to link to which show that providing children and/or adults with puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and drastic surgery is beneficial.

"it is, however, much supported by those who would denigrate and restrict trans healthcare."

I think you have failed to recognise that the majority of posters on this board are very keen to see trans identifying children and adults receiving good, evidence based healthcare like any other group. That doesn't mean providing dangerous lifelong medication and life altering risky surgery with no proven benefits.

Indeed. Why are they so keen? You would nearly think they didn't give a shit about these children and were trying to use them as pawns in their TRA agenda. Whereas the women I see speaking out about this issue are often mothers and/ or women working at the coalface with vulnerable young people, especially those with autistic children. We understand safeguarding and vulnerability.

Helen Joyce has spoken about parents of trans identifying children clinging to the belief that they've done the right thing otherwise they'd have to realise the truth about what they've allowed to happen to their child. I think the same is true of some trans identifying adults. E.G. A man who has changed his name, had his genitals removed, had multiple facial surgeries in order to be somatically female yet people still see him as a man, I can fully understand him trying to convince everyone, including himself, that it was all worthwhile.

One thing I will never understand from TRAs is the sheer desperation for there to be a suicide problem and the sheer desperation to want to medically transition children. It’s such dangerous activism: to inflate a harm that doesn’t exist in order to carry out a harm that isn’t required. Surely it’s better for everyone if children aren’t killing themselves and do not need medical treatments. Why are TRAs so desperate for the opposite to be true?

This aspect of trans activism is so weird and dangerous.

This echoes Denmark's change in position.

So that's Finland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark now that are making U turns on the care of 'gender incongruent' children. All of which, I believe, were among the earliest adopters of self ID and hormonal treatment for children.

The Dutch protocol appears to have been enormously dangerous, flawed and damaging.

There is a lot of carefully worded claims in your post about the study

1. fundamentally flawed
2. over controlled
3. deliberately
4. intended to come to a particular result

On none of those four points have you provided any evidence, nor links. You've instead given a waffly general wave instead to a US trans activist.

If you had any evidence of what you claim you would have backed it up. The fact you didn't says a lot about you. A D grade first year law student would have done better.

Please post studies and medical reviews that disprove this Finnish study and the historic claims made by clinicians that were also in line with this study made from decades of working with children with gender dysphoria that are out there.

Even Polly Carmichael said something along the same lines years ago.

So if your benchmark for stating issues with a study is a heavily invested journalist’s analysis, and not providing an equivalent peer reviewed study considering how many years this has been an issue and they must be out there, that gives everyone a very good understanding of the lack of rigor you apply to your other advice. Good to know. Thanks.

There's a longer article up but here's the activist/"expert" being relied on:

https://twitter.com/ErinInTheMorn/status/1761891374851293304

The article itself:

https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/fact-checked-new-problematic-finnish

I'm not sure why the poster who raised it was too shy to link to it.

Erin Reed's "analysis" work has featured in the past - Helleofabore did some sterling work last year.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4739997-to-think-that-gender-affirming-care-is-barbaric-and-should-be-banned?page=8&reply=124162482

This author is a male who describes themselves as an Activist, content creator, legislative research, as well as a 'mom' and a Dungeon Master in Dungeons and Dragons.

They have a pinned tweet that says:

Erin inthemorning Aug 7, 2021

"Hey y’all. Are you looking for HRT but don’t know where to start? Worried about therapist letters and gatekeepers? I made this two years ago and have maintained it since. EVERY informed consent HRT spot in the country. No therapist required."

So, let us be clear. This person is a male calling themselves 'mom' and is publicly promoting hormones without any diagnosis. And this person feels that they have enough expertise to call out the experience of Jamie Reed. And does this with supposedly a straight face when they wrote:

"She is not a doctor, a psychologist, a psychiatrist, and does not have direct medical diagnostic experience with patients. ...

I think "journalist" isn't really the word here.

I'm not sure why the poster who raised it was too shy to link to it.

Well, we do tend to read links. It's very annoying.

I haven't read the study, so I can't comment if the methods/interpretation are flawed or not. But I do think the result affirm a theory that I already had about this: that for teens who are suffering from depression, becoming someone else seems like a good way to escape and solve all their problems. And then when they do, they realise that they are still depressed, but now they have this whole other problem to deal with on top of that. Certainly a number of news articles have revealed that some of those who have transitioned have expressed that this is exactly what happened to them.

It seems that the TRAs are determined to avoid addressing the elephant in the room that co-morbid mental health issues are extremely common in children with gender dysphoria. Any patterns associated with suicide are related to the mental health issues.

You’d think the finding and argument that services should seek to address the mental health issues (rather than pretending they’re just mere side effects of being trans and will melt away with transition, so long as all the drugs and surgeries are involved and everyone around them ensures their behaviour only affirms).

But no. The only thing that matters is that children are transitioned quickly and with no curiosity about what is making children feel they want to do it. It’s just who they essentially are.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshuacohen/2023/12/02/europe-and-us-diverge-on-treatment-of-gender-incongruence-in-minors/?sh=1fda6c2720d0

'Europeans adopting a more cautious approach to care for gender incongruent minors are basing their decisions on evidence-based medicine rather than politics. Specifically, there are concerns about the risk-benefit ratio in regard to administering transitional treatments. In turn, this has led to a “reassessment of clinical practice guidelines” which now generally narrow eligibility for care of gender incongruence to research settings.'

Thanks Necessary!! I did recognise this ‘journalist’. But I couldn’t remember where I had written about them.

The fact they still have a pinned tweet about how to bypass medical diagnosis to get hormone treatment :

“Hey y’all. Are you looking for HRT but don’t know where to start? Worried about therapist letters and gatekeepers? I made this two years ago and have maintained it since. EVERY informed consent HRT spot in the country. No therapist required.”

But apparently this person is supposed to be an exemplar in supporting high quality health care for children. So we are being told to believe….

I’d be interested to know from @RobinMoiraWhite how confident you would be calling upon Erin Read as an expert witness to examine before the court and be cross examined by an opposing barrister on the subject of the validity of evidence for “gender affirming care”?

More from that Forbes article:

Norway

'In March, for example, the Norwegian Healthcare Investigation Board announced it would revise its current clinical recommendations. The updated guidelines restrict the use of puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones and transition-related surgery to clinical research settings.'

UK

''The British National Health Service announced last year an interim policy which maintains that “puberty-suppressing hormones should not be routinely commissioned for children and adolescents” outside of research settings, citing the “significant uncertainties” surrounding the use of hormone treatments..'

Sweden

'A 2022 report commissioned by the Swedish government concluded that the “scientific basis is not sufficient” to continue to conduct hormone treatments on children without further research. Health officials stated that puberty blockers, hormones, and mastectomies should only be used in “exceptional cases,” as the risks are likely to outweigh benefits.'

Denmark

'A marked shift in policy this year has meant that in Denmark most youth referred to the centralized gender clinic no longer get a prescription for puberty blockers, hormones or surgery. Rather, they receive therapeutic counseling and other support services.'

France

'In France, the Académie Nationale de Médecine in February 2022 recommended the “greatest reserve” when considering puberty blockers or hormone treatments. The academy warned that the risk of “over-diagnosis” is real and urged caution when evaluating patients.'

Finland

'After years of additional research, a public health body in Finland recommended that minors experiencing gender dysphoria first be provided with psychological support and, if further medical treatment is pursued, that the patient be made “aware of the risks associated with them.”
Ultimately, this gave rise to Finnish health authorities conducting systematic reviews of evidence for the benefits and risks of hormonal interventions. Subsequently, the findings from these reviews suggested that studies cited in support of hormonal interventions for adolescents are of “very low” certainty. In turn, this led to the placement of severe restrictions on access to hormones.'

Netherlands

'Even in the Netherlands, where practice guidelines haven’t been revised yet, in an article published in February of this year the author concluded that “more research on sex changes in young people under the age of 18 is urgently needed,” in particular, referring to the importance of examining the long-term effects of “medicalized” transgender care.'