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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

31/01/23 Interesting Twitter thread from Leor Sapir about Finnish paediatric body’s position

20 replies

BettyFilous · 31/01/2023 23:45

BREAKING: Dr. Riittakerttu Kaltiala, Finland's leading expert on pediatric gender medicine and chief psychiatrist at its largest gender clinic (Tampere University), just gave an interview to the country's leading newspaper, Helsingin Sanomat.

twitter.com/LeorSapir/status/1620448053357592576

OP posts:
BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 01/02/2023 00:13

"A balance of the mind does not come from making others do and see what you want."

A very intetesting thread.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 01/02/2023 00:36

four out of five" children with cross-gender ID grow out of it during puberty and come to terms with their body/sex

Which proves that it's a mental health issue and not a special innate feeling.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 01/02/2023 00:37

Finland is sending mixed messages. This common sense and that odd skating lump.

WarriorN · 01/02/2023 06:49

That's a really useful thread, thanks op

WarriorN · 01/02/2023 07:08

Helsingin: Suicide was a very rare occurrence in about ten years among young people seeking gender identity diagnoses. On the other hand, in a large Swedish study, suicide mortality had clearly increased among adults who had received gender reassignment treatments.

WarriorN · 01/02/2023 07:10

That's such an important thread I'm going to c and p each tweet. So many useful quotes from a GD expert on children.

Bare with...

WarriorN · 01/02/2023 07:20

BREAKING: Dr. Riittakerttu Kaltiala, Finland's leading expert on pediatric gender medicine and chief psychiatrist at its largest gender clinic (Tampere University), just gave an interview to the country's leading newspaper, Helsingin Sanomat.

The interview highlights just how out of step the U.S. medical establishment is with its European counterparts on pediatric gender medicine. Doctors and medical groups in Finland have been willing and able to stand up to activists, including within their own ranks.

The context: Finland is considering a gender self-ID law for adults. The Finnish equivalent of Stonewall, a trans activist group, is quietly lobbying for the law to apply also to minors. Helsingin Sanomat interviewed Dr. Kaltiala for her thoughts on whether this is a good idea.

While it is "important to accept the child as they are," Kaltiala said, it's also necessary to recognize that "four out of five" children with cross-gender ID grow out of it during puberty and come to terms with their body/sex.

Accepting a child as they are, Kaltiala explained, means neither pressuring them to conform to sex-typical behaviors nor "negating the body" by confirming the gender self-ID. "In either case, the child gets a message that there is something wrong with him or her."

Changing the legal sex marker in youth, Kaltiala told the newspaper, is not a formality which states a fact, but a strong psychological and social intervention that guides the development of a young person. "It's a message saying that this is the right path for you."

For teenagers whose dysphoria began in childhood and intensified in puberty, discordant ID seems more stable. But for those in whom dysphoria began in adolescence, "the phenomenon is new, and therefore there is no scientific knowledge about the constancy of this experience."

"The developmental mission of youth is not helped by the fact that young people's self-expression
is supported and directed from the outside... The environment should also not commit to identity experiments in a way that might make a later change of direction anxiety-inducing."

This is also what Dutch clinician-researcher Dr. Thomas Steensma and his colleagues advised in a 2011 study. Desisting and persisting gender dysphoria after childhood: A qualitative follow-up study - Thomas D. Steensma, Roeline Biemond, Fijgje de Boer, Peggy T. Cohen-Kettenis, 2011

Helsingin: Many young people grab the idea available in the media & social media that their problems are caused by gender identity & will be solved if others start to see them as members of the other sex.

That does not work, says Kaltiala. "A balance of the mind does not come from making others do and see what you want."

Helsingin: Activists... calling for hormone treatments for minors & legal gender recognition often repeat that trans youth have an increased risk of suicide & therefore urgently need care & support. "It's purposeful disinformation, & spreading it is irresponsible," says Kaltiala.

Suicidal thoughts and behavior are related to simultaneous psychiatric disorders also in young people who problematize their gender. "Mentally healthy young people who experience their sex in a way that is different from their biological bodies are not automatically suicidal."

[LS: This is the unfounded minority stress theory that co-occurring mental health problems, including suicidality, are secondary to "unaffirmed" gender and manageable only through social & medical transition. The suicide discourse relies on a correlation/causation fallacy.]

Helsingin: Suicide was a very rare occurrence in about ten years among young people seeking gender identity diagnoses. On the other hand, in a large Swedish study, suicide mortality had clearly increased among adults who had received gender reassignment treatments.

"Therefore it is not justified to tell the parents of young people identifying as transgender that a young person is at risk of suicide without medical treatments and that the danger can be alleviated with gender reassignment," says Kaltiala.

Kaltiala told the Finland Parliament Social & Health Committee that it would be better to not start any physical treatments based on gender identity before adulthood. A Finnish study found that the mental health of many minors who had received hormonal care... deteriorated.

Asked about the dominance of the suicide discourse, Kaltiala said: "adults who have themselves benefited from gender reassignment, have a desire to go out and save children and young people. But they lack the understanding that a child is not a small adult. "

In its statement to the Social and Health Committee, the Finnish Pediatric Society (equivalent to @AmerAcadPedss*) said gender self-ID should not be extended to minors.

[LS: American schools de-facto practice gender self-ID for kids as young as kindergarten]
Link to Helsingin article: hs.fi/tiede/art-2000…

Thanks to my translator.

If any of you see a mistake in translation, please let me know.

One additional point: although Kaltiala implies that gender dysphoria is more permanent if it begins in childhood and persists into adolescence, we actually don't have high quality, well-controlled studies showing this. It might be true, but we don't know this.

As a reminder, Dr. Kaltiala is the one who told me that @grace_huckinss of @WIREDD "total[ly] mischaracteriz[ed] our research" when she cited a peer-reviewed article by Kaltiala in support of the "affirm or suicide" mantra.

Screenshot of email upon request.

Aikuisten ei pitäisi ryhtyä vahvistamaan eikä hillitsemään nuorten identiteettikokeiluja, sanoo nuorisopsykiatrian professori - Tiede | HS.fi

JacquelinePot · 01/02/2023 07:40

Bump

tilder · 01/02/2023 07:47

This is why #nodebate is wrong. We have to have data and evidence to properly support people and to ensure decision making is informed

LizzieSiddal · 01/02/2023 08:19

Thank you for this, will read later.

Rainbowshit · 01/02/2023 08:29

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 01/02/2023 00:37

Finland is sending mixed messages. This common sense and that odd skating lump.

Are they though? Seems almost TERFY to put him in the spotlight given he makes trans people look bloody ridiculous.

lifeturnsonadime · 01/02/2023 09:18

@WarriorN

Thanks, that pretty well debunks the entire basis upon which Mermaids has operated and supports the findings of the Cass Review.

WarriorN · 01/02/2023 09:31

Yes it does. And so many school RSE providers bs about "trans kids" and suicide etc.

lifeturnsonadime · 01/02/2023 09:55

Warrior I've just linked that on this thread - www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4732148-this-is-very-important-to-read-for-all-parents?page=10&reply=123553381

Where a poster seems insistent that double mastectomies are nothing to be worried about and we just are objecting to people being different.

lordloveadog · 01/02/2023 10:02

I really appreciate that she emphasizes that we have to let children be different - be ok with gender non-conforming behaviour.

And that it's suggesting that this might mean the child should socially transition that sets up the 'there's something wrong with my body' problem.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 01/02/2023 10:15

This looks great. I need to read properly when I’m not supposed to be working

nepeta · 01/02/2023 18:47

Finland just passed self-identification for gender, though I have not checked how young people can do this. In other words, this expert gave a statement to the committee (or whatever it was which created this new law), but her statement most likely was ignored.

ScrollingLeaves · 01/02/2023 21:29

Thank you, that is so interesting, particularly the part regarding the idea that not affirming a young person will lead to their suicide; that a large Swedish study showed that those who have had reassignment surgery have higher rates of suicide, and that puberty blockers can cause poor mental health.

ScrollingLeaves · 01/02/2023 21:30

Sorry, I forgot to add that it is not true that they will be more suicidal.

nepeta · 01/02/2023 21:36

Rainbowshit · 01/02/2023 08:29

Are they though? Seems almost TERFY to put him in the spotlight given he makes trans people look bloody ridiculous.

The medical establishment (lots of organisations) agree with Kaltiala on being very careful on youth transitioning, but the trans rights organisation in Finland has been very good at reaching its goals within the political establishment.

It would be interesting to know how informed the general public there is, as the general public seems pretty uninformed in almost all the countries I have studied on this question.

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