Clear and simple terminology

[SoupDragonsFriend]

I'm noticing more and more confusion surrounding the terminology being used to describe gender ideology-based thinking (eg. the current discussions about transman/transwoman in relation to breastfeeding).

It seems essential that we say things exactly as they are and no longer allow space for any confusion. Confusion doesn't help us navigate the maze and chaos created by TQ+. Confusion doesn't help people new to the debate or people who are not fluent in English.

In terms of clarity, we already have, for example:

• A woman is an adult human female
• A man is an adult human male

And that

• Sex observed (or recorded) at birth replaces 'sex assigned at birth'

Are there other definitions to add to this list, or that we could create eg:

• A man, or 'a man who believes he is a woman', to replace 'transwoman' and MTF
• A woman, or 'a woman who believes she is a man', to replace 'transman' and FTM?

Similarly for transgirls and transboys.

What other words and clear, simple definitions could be added to a 'say it as it is' list?

I don't know if anyone has already done this but can we create something that could be useful to journalists/HR departments/policy makers etc to stop the confusion at source?

In principle, an excellent idea. But the terms disliked by those of us on this side of the 'debate' were invented by those on the other precisely because they obfuscate or deny reality. The desire to be 'other' is strong from an early age. Those who have brought up children will recognise the toddler who detests the term, or the child who not wear an items of clothing because it is for a 'little' boy or girl.

How about "male (or female) of gender"?

I’ve heard a man on the radio describe himself as ‘a woman of trans experience’, before.

So it was completely the wrong way around. He should have said “I am a man of trans experience”, although I have no idea what ‘trans experience’ is supposed to mean.

Perhaps it should go back to the words transvestite/transsexual, so male transvestite/male transsexual, female transvestite/female transsexual. But for there to be some actual clarity about what the difference between the two of these is, otherwise people would falsely believe that transsexuals have been genitally modified.

'A woman with a trans past' is used sometimes too.

They are men. I say men with gender, or men with gender identity here, but really, 'man' is descriptive enough the majority of the time.

I also think language again in the workplace eg in questionnaires should stop assuming that everyone’s default position is to have a gender identity, or to assume they identify as whatever.

Sure, ask the question if it is relevant, but don’t assume everyone has such a thing at all, I find this exclusionary not inclusive.

Yes.

Men/man/male. Women/woman/female.

Its all that should be necessary in a dimorphic species.

But if it caused confusion, a person could clarify “I am a man, but I like to imagine that I am a woman” then the other person is free to respond “Okay I understand, but that makes me feel uncomfortable for various reasons, so I will continue to view and treat you as a man’.

It would be good if the IPSO guidelines resulted in much clearer descriptions so that readers were more likely to understand what is being said.

Journalists always write about “a trans woman” or “a trans man” (with the space). Their articles would be hugely clearer if they wrote “a male woman” or “a female man”. And if readers did a double take at those apparently nonsensical descriptions, that would be helpful too.

“Pretend”?

A pretend woman/pretend man.

Sex change for the young: stop using euphemisms

Sex change surgery for children
Sex change medication for children
Adolescent sterilisation medication
Double mastectomy on a young person
Early hysterectomy

?

It’s not sex change though, it it? It is ‘de-sexing’. In most genital cases it removes the reproductive organs. Also the drugs involved can temporarily or permanently sterilise the patient.

And in most non-genital cases it is double-mastectomy for women or plastic surgery for men - such as implants and facial plastic surgery.

I'd like us to stop pretending there is such a thing as a transsexual child.

HRT can only relate to women. The rest is wrong-sex hormones used to create something akin to the secondary sex characteristics of the opposite sex.

There's no such thing as sex change surgery.

The word gender just appears to relate to personality traits and interests associated with one sex or the other. (Sex stereotypes)

And I speak of same-sex orientation separately to the TQ+ cohort and its infinite identities

It's all so regressive.

'A woman with a trans past'

That would be a woman who previously said she was a man, so a detransitioner. Very different from a man who says he's a woman - that would be a man with a present trans identity.

Note, I always use man and woman to mean their common sense definitions.

A man who wants everyone to pretend that he's a woman just doesn't roll off the tongue unfortunately

"De-sexing" children and young people 😱

What we are allowing to happen to the young makes me rage and weep in equal measure.

Lots of holes in the thread. I'm grateful that MN let's us speak at all. They're one of the few places that will. But clear and simple terminology will too often get deletions.

Its important to recognise what these men are demanding of us. They are trying to get us to think of them as 'not men', to imagine them as either women, or a new separate class of people. Giving them a name is adding to the confusion and giving gender more 'weight' than it deserves.

If a man said he was deeply religious or vegan, he may be saying that to force us to behave a certain way around him, but the government and institutions arent getting involved with those interactions. Im not forced to think of vegan dave when i consider what i eat at work or religious mark when i decide what to wear.

But trans are having that power. Im expected to think about trans ideology and identity every time someone declares their pronouns. It would be odd if, at the start of a meeting we were encouraging to declare our religion, or state the food we dont eat. But pronouns are accepted like its normal? Its forcing us to see some men as not really men, or even women.

Its hard, but i think the sex description man and women is enough most of the time. A man with gender identity doesn't need a special name any more than a man with religion does.

This is another one that works for me.

I'm not entirely surprised my post was deleted. We're only allowed to talk about FGM in the specific context of cultural practices in developing nations.

But one has to wonder - why is FGM abhorrent in one cultural situation but uncriticiseable in another?

Not just beyond criticism but positively applauded. And what is the difference between breast binding and breast ironing?

The difference is Righteous Glittery Rainbow Sparkles that can only be seen by the special Good People with Soul Vision™️ like Layla Moran.