My son can tell...

[allthevitamins]

Watching 'Inside the Factory' on BBC1 with DS, 10.

Cherry Healy was talking about lightbulbs with Dr Clara Barker, Materials Scientist.

Please note this is not personal in relation to Dr Baker.

Dr Barker is Transwoman.

DS says, 'is that a lady?'.

I say no, it's a man.

We left it at that.

I mean Dr Barker is quite feminine.

But unprompted, my DS knew that Dr Barker is not a woman.

Why should I have to lie to him about this?

Intersex was used for a long time before DSD...

Names used for conditions change.

'spastic' was used for a long time for people with cerebral palsy, but isn't any more.

In fact 'intersex' is medically totally inaccurate. There is no "in between, bits of both sexes". As has been pointed out on this thread and many others, people with DSDs are either male or female, they are of one or other of the only two sexes that exist in mammalian species.

No I'm not unwilling to tell my DCs about intersex people at all.

I just think that the public service that's flying that flag should concentrate on providing inclusive services to the community / being an inclusive employer and not just sticking a flag outside which may not be that well-thought-through.

I'm entitled to believe that transpeople very much have human rights.

Equally I'm entitled to believe that 'intersex' Is a range of complex conditions that shouldn't just be lumped-in with trans-issues because 'it's about sex and identity innit'... I actually think it's a very ham-fisted and unwanted approach in many cases.

I'm also entitled to know, and share my knowledge, that people cannot change sex.

I don't think that my local public institutions should have a stance on this other than just getting on with the business of providing their services in an inclusive way.

Driving past in the car with two tweens/teens is not a good way to start this conversation... and I look like I'm taking down something which on the face of it 'is just a pretty.'

There's nuance and complexity to all of this that my DCs aren't ready for and I'll gladly tell them and keep discussing things with them in an age and maturity-appropriate way.

I don't need these issues being foisted on me or my DCs by equality do-gooders looking for quick wins.

Out of interest, do you feel the same about the rainbow pride flag and telling your children gay people exist?

I can understand having discomfort around discussing trans issues with your children, but I'm afraid I still cannot understand why you objected to your children being able to see and ask about the intersex pride flag.

Edited to add: I agree that intersex issues shouldn't be lumped in with trans issues, but that is what you seemed to be doing!

@2mummies1baby historically the medical profession used terms today we would consider highly offensive. Sensibly those terms were replaced with more accurate terms.

For example Downs Syndrome is a common term today but it was only in 1961 following a letter in the lancet https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(11)61212-9/fulltext that the original racist term started to be moved away from.

Similarly, cerebral palsy and cleft palate are more recent terms.

Intersex is a term from a less enlightened time and does not accurately reflect modern understanding. Disorders or Differences in Sex Development (DSD) is merely following a long tradition of modernising medical language.

I'll gladly tell them and keep discussing things with them in an age and maturity-appropriate way.
Absolutely. You can't discuss once and hope that that is it. It needs an ongoing conversation, like many other topics.

I'm actually a lot more chilled about the Pride, although I still question whether it should be flown from public buildings.

The main reason for that is that I see Pride as an acceptance of truth (gay people exist... in fact I know very many, I play a female-dominated sport with a lot of lesbian friends) and to my mind, Equality for gay people doesn't take away rights from anyone else.

For me the trans-movement is very much about celebrating (?) falsehood (hence my son's question... is that man or a woman?) and is actually somewhat homophobic in terms of some activists think that some gay people /lesbians should have sex with certain other types of people that they don't want to, or how a man or a woman should 'be'. In addition, trans rights can impinge on other people's rights... e.g. women's rights to same-sex spaces, sports, services etc.

Obviously that's all a bit heavy for a chat during Sunday night TV with my 10-year old or when just popping to the shops with the kids in the car.

I'm sorry that you seem to be struggling to accept that trans people also exist.

What safeguarding concerns? You seem to be making the implication that the mere existence of trans people in the same world as your children is a safeguarding concern?

What safeguarding concerns? You seem to be making the implication that the mere existence of trans people in the same world as your children is a safeguarding concern?

Men pose a significantly increased risk to other people compared to women, no matter how they identify.

Mixed sex facilities are significantly more dangerous for women and children than single sex ones.

Telling children that some men should have special treatment because they think they are women means that they are put at that higher risk.

I totally agree with your other examples, but I dispute that intersex is offensive in the same way that the previous names for Downs Syndrome and cerebral palsy are offensive- there is an Intersex Society of North America and Intersex Human Rights Australia.

The name is also incidental to my original point, which is that OP was uncomfortable telling her son what the intersex pride flag was for. (Note it isn't called the DSD pride flag!)

A quick google got me their uni bio!
And a look at google images told me how your son knew.

@2mummies1baby possibly because it has less to do with DSDs than to do with trans people co-opting a completely different medical condition.

Remind me, is trans a medical condition needing treatment? A sexual orientation? A choice or preference? It changes according to the discussion.

A 'trans woman' (man) or 'trans man' (woman) being in existence is not of itself a safeguarding issue.

Deceit, pretence, lying around issues to do with genitals and sex etc. is a huge safeguarding issue.

men in women's spaces is a safeguarding issue

drag acts which sexualise stories to very young children is a safeguarding issue

telling children that they can be any sex they wish is a safeguarding issue

recent changes to sex education are a safeguarding issue

encouraging and helping children to 'transition' is a safeguarding issue

giving children puberty blockers and destroying their physical health and natural development is a safeguarding issue

chest-binders being given out to girls is a safeguarding issue

telling children to do things and not tell their parents / agreeing to not inform parents is a safeguarding issue

having boys sharing girl's toilets at school is a safeguarding issue

having boys sharing girls' dormitories on school or activity trips is a safeguarding issue

having boys undress with the girls for sport is a safeguarding issue

having male leaders in the guides able to sleep with the girls is a safeguarding issue

having boys in the girls only guides is a safeguarding issue

having boys at a girls school is a safeguarding issue

and undoubtedly many more...

@2mummies1baby exactly. Intersex is being used politically to give gravitas and legitimacy to trans rights. The more accurate DSD doesn’t fit anywhere near as well.

DSD is the NHS definition https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/ and in the UK we have DSD families https://www.dsdfamilies.org/charity

I am so relieved that I've had some really interesting agreement here.

@akkakk thank you for your very comprehensive list of safeguarding concerns.

It's difficult, isn't it?

FWIW I don't deny the existence of transpeople, and neither do I wish transpeople any harm.

However and am very anti- encouraging any kind of deceit / untruthfulness, especially where children and vulnerable B adults are involved.

I remember my older DC asking me many years ago...

Mummy, what's the difference between dressing up, and being in disguise?

I guess we could add a third angle to that... what difference is being trans.... when what my 10 yo son sees is a man in a dress?

Out of the mouths of babes and all that.

I know the one you mean. All fancy evening dresses and cleavage with massive lashes and beehives. I've probably dressed like that fewer than five times in my life. I too sit on my hands but cannot help thinking it is nothing to do with bargains and all about validating how much like a real woman he is...

The Venn diagram overlap of trans “women” and sex offenders/dangers to children/pedophiles is HUGE

Okay I’m seeing a trend now, there is definitely at least one trans related (heated) discussion on MN every single day….

I don't think this is a heated discussion?

I've started very very few threads on MN and I name change often.

I can't say a lot of this stuff IRL which is the whole point... so here, I've found my people!! And they are helpful.

No, not yet… there’s always some freak that comes on and starts pushing their gender ideologies without any helpful comments on these types of thread…
I do agree with the previous posters tho! Men like Dr Clara whatever his face are total performers, it’s an embarrassment and puts parents in uncomfortable situations with their children like you’ve been.

But it's not randomly explaining it if your child sees the intersex pride flag and asks what it is.

That would be "encountering in real life".

In the UK certainly, support groups etc for people with DSDs have repeatedly stated that they are NOTHING to do with transgenderism, and have repeatedly asked the TRAs not to drag them into the argument as evidence that people can change sex.

They can't

Ah right @PoliteTurtle, we are violently agreeing!

Uncomfortable is exactly what it was.

Yes - because the person he was asking about was trans. They did not have a DSD.

In the unlikely event that OP's* child meets a person with a DSD, then I'm sure that she'll explain in a way that he can understand.

*These conditions are very rare

I respectfully disagree that Clara Barker is quite feminine

It is difficult - I have had involvement in safeguarding for over 30 years - one of the fundamental basics is honesty and transparency, there is no room for deceit / hiding things / not telling parents - these are all huge red flags in safeguarding / grooming...

the issue we have here (which is very sad) is that:

• there is a small group of people who have genuine body dysphoria - for whatever reason they are not happy with who they are physically or who society tells them they are - often society is to blame, gender and sex based stereotypes help no-one.
• however, which changing physical appearance and taking drugs to change hormones can give the surface perspective of resolving issues - it deals only with the symptoms, not the underlying cause which is almost entirely going to be mental health based...
• for some reason in recent years and growing exponentially we have had a mainly separate group who have adopted the 'trans' label as a mechanism to weaponise a different battle - the age old man v. woman - twisting and changing words and logic to build this fantasy that somehow you can change biological sex. This group has little overlap with the first group and is most obvious in those who are men who don't go through any changes but claim to be women - the 6'4" bearded chap in a dress who somehow thinks that lipstick and a blouse with pearls makes him a woman!
• This latter group has predominantly aggressive and deconstructive strategies to take apart society's established beliefs - esp. around women - it has little to do with the much gentler and introspective nature of those who have genuine body dysphoria...
• However, to achieve this it is necessary to smash through norms and accepted patterns - the minute their agenda is up for rational debate it fails (as thank goodness we are increasingly seeing). That very aggressive and destructive approach is in its nature bad for safe-guarding

I think that the simplest way to handle this with children (from an even younger age than yours) is to look at positives - talk about how the child is a girl / is a boy - but they get to define what kind of boy / girl they become - so 'you are a girl, that is how you were born - but what would you like to do - would you like to climb trees, great, let's go and do that / would you like to be a nurse / engineer / oil-rig foreman - great, let's help you do that...' or 'you are a boy, it is how you were born, but of course you can wear a princess dress, isn't it fun - are there other ways we can make things sparkle and look amazing? you would like to express your emotions / be physical / do parkour / sit and have a cuddle and read - all fine...'

When they ask about others, just explain that they are a man / woman, but they like to wear dresses - how do you think that is good / bad - must be tricky to climb a tree in a dress, but looks amazing - etc.

When you then get the questions about - anyone can change / a man who claims to be a woman - the simple answer is 'no darling, we know that you are born a boy / girl, that can't change - however some people are a bit confused so sometimes they think you can but we know it is not possible... etc.

It sounds as though you are doing a brilliant job of parenting - it is not easy!