'Coming Out' should be consigned to history

[IcakethereforeIam]

I read this article yesterday and I've been thinking about it since because I found it interesting

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coming-out-at-work-should-be-consigned-to-past-insists-lawyer-wtdqqr3rv

https://archive.ph/OpYGu no paywall

I'm not a believer in 'bringing your whole self to work'. Some people's 'whole selves' could be quite detrimental to work. Conversely parts of someone's 'whole self' is none of works business. I might be extreme though, if I could have kept being pregnant from work I would have done.

That said, it's nice to have the option but I wish we were at the stage where being LGB is something completely unremarkable. Which got me thinking about the T and how that differs to sexual orientation. I think it's summed up by, MN permitting 👀, if a guy puts on a dress in the woods and there's no-one around, is he really trans?

'Bring your who self to work' is rampant in the NHS. What they really mean is that we need to tip toe around the TQ, and contribute to erasing women's safe spaces.

I did point out in a meeting that Bringing our whole selves to work would surely result in political and ideological carnage. I was responded with.....Oh can't you just be kind, you silly cis-woman 😩

I honestly believe that people should do their best on both sides. That means no one should be homophobic but equally no one should complain when people make assumptions, because this is normal human behaviour. I don’t like corporate pride either because I think it is often virtue signalling.

Tbh I think we should just accept that people are often clumsy and a bit prejudiced. The number of times I have mentioned being Jewish and been asked if I’m rich! The people who do this are not nasty, they’ve just absorbed some casual anti-semitism. Honestly unless they’re marching down the street in brown uniforms or smashing my house up, I don’t care. Nowadays I am mostly a closet Jew. It’s just life and better imo not to tell yourself you’re a victim.

You're equating "Part of your identity" with "your whole identity" though which is ironic because in your next paragraph your friend criticised people for doing exactly that!

Nobody has suggested their sexuality is their whole identity but it obviously is a big part of it. Of course your heterosexuality is part of your identity - you must realise that your life would be very different if you weren't heterosexual - you likely might not be in your current relationship or wouldn't have had your previous ones, if you have kids you might not have, or would have had them a different way and they would be different people, you might have a different relationship with your parents, if you're older than 30 or so you would have likely had a very different school experience....therefore your sexuality clearly is a key and relevant part of your identity, what makes you you, in exactly the same way as your race, social background, religion, where you come from, the language you speak, etc. is.

You have the privilege in not having to constantly THINK about how your heterosexuality forms part of your identity (i.e. what makes you you) because it's the norm, but that doesn't mean it isn't!

If it's so completely accepted and non-remarkable to be gay now why are there so few out male footballers? There are 92 teams in the first 4 leagues, usually with, what, at least 22 players attached to each team? Currently between 3-7% of people define themselves as LGB+ so that would be roughly 60-140 players who are likely not straight on average. Yet NONE of them feel comfortable coming out.

I thought this navel-gazing, liberal bubble, "well in my circle" extrapolating had been smashed after Brexit but apparently not.

er, excuse me, I don't think I specified what my sexuality was did I? why are you presuming I'm straight?

I'm sorry that you have experienced homophobia, just as I'm sorry for myself having experienced much sexism and discrimination due to being a woman. But imo and ime DEI policies in the workplace make discrimination worse, not better, as evidenced by the fact that I, and apparently you, are still experiencing it what 40 odd years since people started going on about it in the workplace. I see the men role their eyes and make snide comments among themselves when someone brings up the women's. network. I don't want my job and career prospects ruined by well meaning people pointing out that I am at the menopausal age.

Sexuality is irrelevant in the workplace and anyone being discriminated against because of the way they are needs to take it up with HR, not enforce and compel behaviour on people as clearly this doesn't work, as evidenced by the massive backlash against the TQ identified people that is clearly going on now.

I thought this navel-gazing, liberal bubble, "well in my circle" extrapolating had been smashed after Brexit but apparently not.

Name calling and tribalism. How's that working for you?
.

Things I care about in a colleague: can they do the job? Are they helpful, willing, and a team player when necessary, or a lazy jobsworth?
Things I don't care about: who they like shagging or want to have relationships with.
Literally who the hell cares?

I think the men’s football thing is an example of how toxic that whole thing is. It’s not an issue in women’s football is it?

I, for one, assumed you were straight for the following reasons:

1. It's relevant to this discussion, so you surely would have mentioned if you were gay;
2. Your previous comment seemed to imply that homophobia no longer existed in 2024 (despite you mentioning in both comments that sexism clearly does still exist- because that affects you, you have seen it in action). If you were gay, you would be aware that it does.
3. If you were gay, you would have used an example from your own experience of coming out, rather than that of your boss.

Also, @drhf didn't 'accuse' you of being straight! They mentioned straight posters, and you decided that applied to you! 😂

I've never seen anyone 'come out' at work.

I've had female colleagues mention their wife, or male colleagues who have a partner called John.

But that is coming out, surely? If your colleagues don't know you are gay, and then you reveal in conversation that your partner is a same-sex partner, you have just come out. Are some posters imagining that it's only 'coming out' if you have a banner and flags, or if you stand up and make an official announcement in a meeting?

I'm a teacher and all my students know I have a husband, two children, a dog and a cat. I don't for one moment think that it would necessarily be as easy for all gay teachers in all schools to feel they could be as immediately open about their life as I am able to be. (Before anyone asks why all my students know those details - I am a languages teacher. We are constantly modelling how to talk about yourself.)

Well you shouldn't presume, that is part of the problem. My sexuality is my business, and certainaly not anybody's I work with, unless I choose to tell them.

I also don't want people at work assuming it or tokenising me as a lone woman or a lesbian. What I would like is everyone to be judged at work on how well they perform and how good they are at their job.

What I would like is everyone to be judged at work on how well they perform and how good they are at their job.

Literally everyone wants that, unless they are complete dickheads. People also want to be able to mention their wife or boyfriend or whatever at work without being accused of ramming their sexuality down people's throats.

People also want to be able to talk about their experience of homophobia without being told it can't be true because it's 2024, as if that has any relevance.

I'm genuinely grateful that some straight people get it- I was finding this thread a rather dispiriting read.

'Immutable Sex Essence' should do it.

It's working great thank you 😊

Im sorry you feel that way @2mummies1baby - so what am I not getting? As one of the straight people on here?

I don't recall saying homophobia doesn't exist? I'd genuinely like to know how often revealing you're not straight (coming out) has led to homophobia? Or is it the fear of a homophobic response, in the same way a lone woman might fear a random man?

Does homophobia in this case, also include people assuming you're straight? (The most common sexuality) And does it include people like me not wanting to be forced to go to Pride events by their employer? (Which I think is a serious over reach by virtue signalling corporations.) Are you saying homophobia - people actually hating on people because of same sex orientation - is as common today as it was 40 years ago? If so that's really troubling. These are genuine questions. Sad I have to repeat that.

FWIW, I find it really disheartening how some posters lean on the worst possible interpretations on this thread. The othering is really unnecessary and dehumanising.

I don't recall saying homophobia doesn't exist?

I never said you, personally, did. You are one person on this thread.

I'd genuinely like to know how often revealing you're not straight (coming out) has led to homophobia?

In my experience, roughly 15% of the time. And I have spent my whole life living in either London or Brighton, so therefore will have experienced a lot less homophobia than many others.

Or is it the fear of a homophobic response, in the same way a lone woman might fear a random man?

Yes, the fear is always there because of the aforementioned homophobia.

Does homophobia in this case, also include people assuming you're straight?

No, it does not.

And does it include people like me not wanting to be forced to go to Pride events by their employer?

No, it does not.

Are you saying homophobia - people actually hating on people because of same sex orientation - is as common today as it was 40 years ago?

No, I am not- you have completely plucked that out of nowhere. What I am saying is that homophobia absolutely does still exist, and that straight people have no business telling gay people that it doesn't.

I'm so glad I am able to clarify things for you.

Thank for responding @2mummies1baby . I will reread the thread as I didnt pick up on anyone saying homophobia doesnt exist - but quite a lot of people, gay & straight, saying they didnt see it as a major defining issue in society today.

The way Kathleen Stock was treated by Sussex, I'm surprised you hold up Brighton as a shining beacon of liberalism. But then, perception is subjective.

I don't care who you chose to have sex with or what you do to your genitals as its completely irrelevant to your job, unless you work in a brothel

I hope you make this clear every time Neil from accounts says he’s having dinner with his wife later.

You’re being disingenuous here. Many posts have said ‘no-one’ bats an eyelid/cares/gafs etc, etc of a gay/lesbian person comes out or mentioned their same sex spouse. In response many posters with loved experience as gay/lesbian people said actually they do experience adverse responses which are based on homophobia.

Most of the gay/lesbian posters have said it is something they still have to think about and be aware of a lot.

I am a lesbian and I was heterosexual so I’ve seen both sides to this one. I was shocked at some of the responses I got as a lesbian.

Actually spat out my tea at this, @DuchessNope 😂

How am I being disingenuous? Why is it hard to imagine questions are coming from curiosity?

Why are you ignoring L/B women on this thread who don't see an issue?

As it happens. I was actively involved in gay rights across the 90s in US and UK, specifically around HIV, and I really don't get the culture now and I'd like to. One poster claimed they were so relieved to see another poster (a straight person) get what it's like to come out which is surprising to me in this day and age. I'm.asking if coming out is a real problem in 2024. Not an unreasonable question really.

You want to be treated with respect. Well so does everyone else. I suggest you stop thinking the absolute worst of others trying to understand your perspective is a good place to start. Maybe go on evidence rather than projection.

I'm.goimg to suggest that maybe railing against others for not magically knowing your particulsr hardship isn't going to help you.

I'd love to know if homophobia also translates to the men who call themselves lesbian and to Stonewall - and why so many lesbians seem okay with men in their spaces- perhaps someone here will genuinely see I don't get the current culture, I'd like to understand.

Why is that not the thing that is most homophobic? And its officially a part of your community. The taking over of LGB spaces by straight people, the bullying of Kathleen Stock, Alison Bailey, Jo P, your woman into NFU recently to name a few...its not people like me pushing these women out of their jobs. Or is it just easier to be mean to actual would-be allies? 🤔

Why is that not the thing that is most homophobic? And its officially a part of your community. The taking over of LGB spaces by straight people, the bullying of Kathleen Stock, Alison Bailey, Jo P, your woman into NFU recently to name a few...

That is bloody well absolutely the thing that is most homophobic. And it’s the worse because it’s cloaked in a fake veil of progressiveness and tolerance.

I don’t see the worst in people. Not even the guy who wound his window down, in a major city, and shouted ‘lesbians’ as I walked with my girlfriend.

You want to understand the current culture - well lots of lesbians have given an insight on this thread.

I don’t think any poster has claimed that ‘the most’ homophobic thing is people assuming they are heterosexual or have an adverse response to them having a same sex relationship. They’ve just pointed out that it’s based on homophobia or heteronormativity.

Many places don’t have lesbian spaces anymore. So lots of lesbians don’t hang out in them and don’t witness men taking them over. So many of our experiences are in mixed contexts such as the workplace or being in public. And the original post was about people coming out at work.

This is a GC board in the main, so the women posting here will no doubt like me think that what happened to Kathleen Stock is hugely problematic.