'Coming Out' should be consigned to history

[IcakethereforeIam]

I read this article yesterday and I've been thinking about it since because I found it interesting

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coming-out-at-work-should-be-consigned-to-past-insists-lawyer-wtdqqr3rv

https://archive.ph/OpYGu no paywall

I'm not a believer in 'bringing your whole self to work'. Some people's 'whole selves' could be quite detrimental to work. Conversely parts of someone's 'whole self' is none of works business. I might be extreme though, if I could have kept being pregnant from work I would have done.

That said, it's nice to have the option but I wish we were at the stage where being LGB is something completely unremarkable. Which got me thinking about the T and how that differs to sexual orientation. I think it's summed up by, MN permitting 👀, if a guy puts on a dress in the woods and there's no-one around, is he really trans?

If someone came out to me I would explain factually but not unkindly 'no offence but I don't care, I don't need to know as it's irrelevant to me'

If people do care what to they want me to do about it pat them on the back? Throw a parry?

Why would they care what I or anyone thought? I'm straight do they care?

A teen girl came out to me firstly as lesbian then later as trans. I think she expected more surprise, or validation. I warned her about the dangers of binders and hormones, when she mentioned them. Pointed out relevant news stories- Keira Bell, and that she may feel she’s known for ages but at 17 no part of her life classes as ages to an oldie like me.

She would have needed to tell people as she was changing and wanted different pronouns so I suppose coming out conversations were required.

Other than that, I’m generally more surprised when a camp man turns out to have wife and children than anyone coming out as gay. Though I think someone in a straight marriage having a same sex affair is probably still surprising, just because of the two things wrapped up in one situation I suppose.

Thanks for posting, that's set me thinking.
I'm just playing with the idea about information being "need to know" and/or "need to say".

It seems like some people have a desire or need to tell other people things which from the other person's perspective, they may feel they don't need to know (and maybe would rather not.)

Then again, that's not surprising if "identity" or "self-identification" has a social currency value. Or if identity has to be validated by the other person for that final seal of approval (or thrill in some cases.)

I have never understood the need for people to come out at work, there is no need. Yet there are some "professional" gay people who make their sexuality the only facet of their personality and shoehorn being gay into everything ( I used to work with such a person). Quite tedious really. Does anyone care anymore?

Typical of Stonewall to oppose this, and bang on about visibility. Where would their money spinning schemes be without the endless professional LGBT groups?

I oppose the Bring Your Whole Self to work stuff. I don’t want anyone’s ‘whole self’ in a professional setting. I want their work self.

The love life of my dentist or checkout person is none of my damned business. Nor is mine theirs.

Actually the therapy concepts of self-disclosure and projection might also be interesting.

The less a person self-discloses, the more that others project assumptions onto them. The more projection, the more there might be a sense of restriction in being able to be oneself.

I don't care who someone wants to have sex with. I don't want to know about the sex lives of other people, and especially not of colleagues!

My childhood best friend came out to me when we were 15. I always knew. She was disappointed that I didn't give her a big reaction, I just said yeah I know, and she was upset that I wasn't angry about it

I can't read the article but I would prefer a world where all sexual orientations were respected. I think it's naive to think there isn't homophobia (and racism and sexism and actual transphobia) so until there isn't, people with Protected Characteristics (Equality Act 2010) do need protections against discrimination.

I don't think it's necessarily about your whole self to work but imagine if spouses were invited to a work event, someone brought a same-sex partner and were sacked the next day. That's what we're really trying to prevent.

I don’t understand this whole obsession with people’s sexuality. Our son told us he was bisexual at 13. I hope he wasn’t disappointed in our reaction.

just find someone who makes you happy, I don’t give a shit what’s in their pants.

i care more about someone’s political opinions far more than their sexuality.

Also just conversations about partner/family etc. Of course people are meant to be in work to work - but its normal (and nice) to ask after each others kids/spouse etc. I think people in same sex relationships often have an additional explanation to do along the lines of "its actually my husband". That should never be an issue.

But that's a long way from bringing "your whole self to work". e.g. I know my boss is married and has small children. I don't want to hear in depth diatribes about his marital problems. I don't want to hear my other colleagues telling me about how many people they slept with over the weekend, or their polycule or whatever. Boundaries in the workplace are really important and employees should have the right to set them. You can't do that if someone's bringing their whole self.

@ZeldaFighter the second link should see you past the paywall.

I think there's a difference between hiding your sexual orientation because you're ashamed (no-one who is only interested in having any sort of relationship with another consenting adult should feel ashamed) or, even worse, afraid. It should be completely unremarkable. I don't think the article is calling for the Equality Act to be repealed but it would be lovely if the day arrives when it's no longer necessary.

But it's largely unavoidable to come out if you want to have any sort of vaguely sociable relationship with colleagues, even on the most basic "have a nice weekend?" level.

For most people "coming out" doesn't mean prancing into work decked in rainbow colours and expecting either cake and adulation for their bravery or sneers and condemnation....its just the everyday conversations like
"I need to leave early today to pick my partner up from work if thats all right"
"No worries, where does he work?"
"She works in tesco"
"Oh the big one on x Road? My friend used to work there..."
Colleague 2 now knows colleague 1 is gay (or at least in a relationship with another woman). Colleague 1 could very likely say to partner "Oh I came out to my manager today." Colleague 1 NOT "coming out" could mean 10 years of either outright lying or avoiding any type of

I don't understand why people say stupid things like "theres no need to know whether someone i work with is gay or straight, I don't want or need to know about other people's sex life" - most people only want to clarify whether they are in a relationship with a man or a woman, not how often they go at it or their preferred positions!

Christ the heteronormativity in these statements. If you have ever worked in a team, then you will know that people talk about their families, partners and kids all the time, in all types of workplaces. For many, many years people in same sex relationships did not talk about their personal lives or rather obliquely. Do you really lack any understanding of the lived experiences of others to not see that this might have been and might still be an issue?

If you have ever mentioned your husband/male partner at work (maybe you didn't), you have announced your sexuality, made a good stab at announcing your sexual orientation and exactly how your sex life might be operating. However, you don't see it like that as we just assume it is 'normal' and safe to mention these things. But if someone who is LGB mentions something, they are somehow ramming their sexuality/sex life down someone's throat. Most people just want to be able to comfortably talk about their lives in a very mundane way and join in. That's really what 'bringing yourself' to work means for most people.

Exactly. Coming out is what you have to do when your colleagues assume your partner is of the opposite sex. It's got nothing to do with sharing details of sex life!

Do people really assume that? Definitely not a thing where I work (financial services) and all ages. Gender neutral terms are used until it is known, and then appropriate terms. It’s not hard, and unremarkable, and even works for bisexual.

I also look forward to the day we no longer need legislation and coming out isn’t a thing.

A fair few of our senior team are gay, and a fair few are married with children. Some of them fall into both groups and some of them fall into neither. It's all very open, as it should be, and absolutely no problem. It's just a non issue.

But the younger people go on and on about how difficult it is to be LGBTQ+ and how everyone hates them and attacks them, yet their gay managers prove that being gay is no bar to promotion, acceptance, just normal life. The difference is quite stark.

I come out on an almost daily basis. someone is aways asking what I'm doing in the evening (so maybe going for dinner with my wife) or are you married, or what does your husband do etc. or "does your sons dad do this or that with him" .. its just oart of normal day to day conversation with people and they always assume you're straight.

People often make assumptions about others, I once asked a colleague what her Christmas plans were and she told me she was a Jehovah's Witness. No drama. I didn't tell her she was brave, she didn't call me a bigot 😄

I have two gay colleagues who have spoken up clearly about this. The difficulty is that an assumption is often made in the direction of heterosexuality.

now if they are in conversation with a client and they mention they are married and then the next question is “what does your wife do” that’s hard. They can correct and say they are married to a man, which is coming out, or obfuscate, or outright lie.

Before coming out can be a thing of the past there need to be even more strides made towards complete acceptance. Homophobia hasn’t gone away and they have also talked about that aspect, and how they never know how the knowledge will land.

The purpose of this is to normalise gay and transgender people. The heteronormative privilege in this thread is quite repellent. "It's OK to be gay, but don't bang on about it" doesn't seem to apply to heterosexual norms.

This is another reason why using gender-neutral language is important at work - talking about spouses and partners and parental leave rather than maternity leave for example.

No one should have to come out, and maybe one day when LGBT people are not targetted for hate it won't even be a thing, but people coming out helps other LGBT people feel solidarity and support.

I think the assumption that anyone thinks a person mentioning a same sex partner is ramming their sexuality down anyone’s throat is a massive overreaction - I honestly think most people don’t really care.

The days of anyone ‘coming out’ in any other way than happening to refer to their partner in a way that tells others their sex is long ago imo.

Theres a huge assumption that anyone heterosexual sees it as a massive thing that they might find out someone’s sexuality in that way, in reality it’s mostly small talk and nobody bats an eyelid at that info.

I don't believe most people on this thread are being repellent (projection much?). In my OP I acknowledge we're not there yet. With one exception, no-one has claimed somebody who mentions they are LGB is 'banging on about it'! FFS

In reply to DadJoke (for some unknown reason I can see the “Reply” option), using gender neutral language just hides reality, so makes gay and trans people less visible. I’m not sure why that would be desirable?

Even 40 years ago where I worked, someone letting on that their partner was same sex would typically have resulted in no more than raised eyebrows, and then the work relationship would have continued as before. I occasionally heard careless remarks that would have been offensive to gay people, but the lesbian I worked with was respected for her work and as far as I know wasn’t on the receiving end of any targeted homophobia. Since then, gay relationships have become much more normalised.

As for trans people coming out, they often make it very obvious by their clothing choices. Gender neutral language won’t disguise that. And if they demand that everyone else uses their choice of third person pronouns, they have announced themselves from the rooftops.

At my husband's place of work which is male dominated the head person and a trans identifying adult child who worked for the company so decided to introduce an LGBT group and then have people joining it post little stories about their "journeys". This does nothing to improve integration and equality. The hetero blokes (who tended to be introverts anyway) didn't have to post details of their personal lives. Bizarre. Your sexuality should be irrelevant in your workplace.

Maybe there's some sort of spray to get rid of heteronormativity if it smells that bad.