'Coming Out' should be consigned to history

[IcakethereforeIam]

I read this article yesterday and I've been thinking about it since because I found it interesting

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coming-out-at-work-should-be-consigned-to-past-insists-lawyer-wtdqqr3rv

https://archive.ph/OpYGu no paywall

I'm not a believer in 'bringing your whole self to work'. Some people's 'whole selves' could be quite detrimental to work. Conversely parts of someone's 'whole self' is none of works business. I might be extreme though, if I could have kept being pregnant from work I would have done.

That said, it's nice to have the option but I wish we were at the stage where being LGB is something completely unremarkable. Which got me thinking about the T and how that differs to sexual orientation. I think it's summed up by, MN permitting 👀, if a guy puts on a dress in the woods and there's no-one around, is he really trans?

I tried editing my typo of "and" a trans identifying... to "had" a but it wasn't accepted.

Interesting question… Seem to remember seeing a Reddit post during the lockdown, where a trans person was bemoaning the fact that they couldn't perform their gender in front of other people...

I've never seen anyone 'come out' at work.

I've had female colleagues mention their wife, or male colleagues who have a partner called John.

But no-one gives it extra attention.

I can see telling your immediate family is a big deal. But not a work place.

There have actually been several posts on this short thread alone referring to people expecting some sort of great acclaim or condemnation when "revealing" their sexuality i.e. implying lgbt+ people make way too much of a fuss, and it's an incredibly frequently repeated view on MN and this board in particular, which is probably why several posters, including myself have disagreed.

There's a constant refrain of "I don't need to know whether you're gay/straight/bisexual/asexual/transgender....what my friend/colleague/cashier/employee does in bed is of no interest or relevance to me."

Which is a bizarre mixing of someone's identity and disclosure of their private sexual actions, which rarely in actual life have an automatic correlation with each other - someone could identify as gay but not be sleeping with anyone, as straight but having an affair, a man married to a woman but they haven't slept together for months, asexual but having sex because they want to have a baby....etc.

Sexual identity regardless of the type = a normal and healthy thing to share with colleagues and general acquaintances as part of every day conversation
Sexual activity regardless of the type = usually inappropriate and oversharing!

Exactly the same as religion or any other identity. Telling your colleagues you went to church/synagogue/mosque yesterday = normal friendly chitchat and something everyone should feel comfortable disclosing and is in no way equivalent to "imposing their religion on us" "going in about how everyone hates and attacks them" etc.

@RapidOnsetGenderCritic are you really objecting to the the use of spouse, parental leave and partner? It's inclusive language. What would you suggest instead?

It's great that you haven't noticed homophobia directed at gay people at your work place recently, and that in your view, your work place was only mildly homophobic, but you aren't likely to be on the receiving end. The normalisation of gay relationships has been because gay people such as Ian McKellen have come out, and there are still arenas where people fear coming out, for example men's football.

The only transgender people you notice are those who are out. "We can always tell" was never right for gay people, and isn't right for transgender people. False positives are common, and tend to impact GNC people in general.

Bring yourself whole to work would be a better aspiration and I would admire any employer who actively took steps towards that.

Bring your whole self to your relationships with your loved ones, family and friends. Bringing your whole self to work is the most creepy intrusive privileged concept. It’s about your employer feeling good about you showing them your heavily curated private life to them and them thinking they are being inclusive by requiring you to do that. Fuck off!

Nobody else really wants to see the real whole self at work, bringing the professional self is perfectly sufficient and HR people who can’t see that is a massive red flag to me.

I also find it very arrogant when posters on MN fall over themselves to assure each other that "nobody would bat an eyelid about a colleague's sexuality" "surely nobody even cares in this day and age" "everyone in my office automatically uses gender neutral pronouns until they know for definite anyway" etc.
Without being able to step out of their liberal, privileged bubble to realise that their experience is far from the case everywhere.

Even in the UK there are still millions of families/workplaces/communities being anything other than straight is very much not the norm or accepted, where anti gay jokes are constantly made, as well as physical attacks.

Also even if you know yourself you couldn't care less about your colleagues' sexuality that doesn't mean they automatically know that, how could they? Most people don't go around with bigot written on their forehead, its still scary to come out (even in a very low-key way such as mentioning your partners sex in conversation) to lots of people. Why denigrate that?

I have to disagree with your comments about parental leave. It is not called this to be inclusive to LGBT people. It is called this to force males, generally heterosexual, to take on parenting responsibilities. It was introduced because men refused to take paternity leave so parental leave was introduced so on a "use it or lose it" basis.

It's actually a measure to support mothers.

@ZeldaFighter you aren't disagreeing with me! Absolutely, gender neutral language particularly around child care benefits women in particular. Forcing men to either take the time off or lose it is a great approach, and goes a little way towards the fact that women get behind on the career ladder.

But it also supports LGBT+ people, too.

Yep, parental leave is not what maternity leave is. It is for mothers. And paternity leave is for fathers. Then there is shared parental leave which is different again, and then also unpaid parental leave which is another different entitlement. And adoption leave too. It isn't necessary to obscure these with imprecise descriptions. Especially when they are each legally defined and protected.

This.

Someone gay loudly coming out and making a big thing of it can actually put other gay people in the workplace under pressure as much as someone in the staff room loudly banging on about their homophobia. I've experienced both.

I have met the people who will tell you their identity before they get around to sharing their name, and yes, it can be a dead bore. No, it's not required to have different views and perceptions of acceptable and tedious behaviours depending on whether or not someone has a special label.

And what's the whole 'solidarity' thing about? I don't want a club to join or an exclusive gang in the workplace, the 'them and us' bit is a problem whether it's straight people doing it or gay people doing it. It's divisive and very unhelpful. I just want people to come to work and do the job. I'll talk about my partner/family to those I know and trust, and if others react with shock that it's not the heterosexual one they expected that's their issue, but tbh it's been rare for almost 20 years now.

And frankly now I am much more careful about times and places of sharing that I'm gay these days because the TQ+ political lobby is not welcoming towards homosexuals and homosexuality, and I do not want to have to deal with the kind of insane, very upsetting conversations I've had on MN about 'yes you can be gay IF you mean by that that you are attracted to and have sex like a good girl with male bodied people who wish you to enact perceiving them as women ' Fuck that conversion therapy, I am not getting into those kind of conversations with anyone I have to see daily and work with. We'll all get on a lot better if we leave all that stuff at the door and just do the work.

So yes. In many ways I am much more closeted than I was ten years ago, and it's because of badly increased homophobia coming directly from those shouting most loudly about LGBT and waving rainbows while ordering everyone to be kind (or else.)

@DadJoke I was specifically and clearly talking about my work situation 40 years ago. Since then, homosexuality has been further normalised.

I have no objection to the use of “spouse” and “parent” where appropriate. I do object when it is less precise. And it doesn’t even necessarily help gay people, such as my friend who calls his partner his husband. I am very suspicious of the erasure of sexed language; it’s not always wrong to attempt to make language more ‘inclusive’, but such efforts can exclude more people than they include if done clumsily and without sufficient thought about all the impacts. Far too often inclusivity turns out to be very exclusive.

For me it’s an objection to the rainbow lanyard, LGBTQ+ badge next to the name badge, and all the pink-washing of corporations throughout Pride month.

I am buying carrots. I don’t care whether Trevor on checkout 3 is gay, I don’t expect him to give a stuff that I’m bi. It’s not needed in our interaction so I don’t see the use of the lanyard/pin/slogan on his work uniform.

That’s not “it’s ok to be gay, but don’t bang on about it,” that’s “wtf does that have to do with us doing our jobs?” I can’t see how it changes anything for LGB people, except for cynical virtue signalling by employers.

all the pink-washing of corporations throughout Pride month.

Yes. The endless banging on for months and months that has happened in recent years is boring and annoying people, and it is banging on. Over selling and over publicising anything does this. It's not helping and has actually done harm. And yes, many LGB people of my acquaintance now won't go near Pride as a straight corporate jolly with a lot of empty, fashionable virtue signalling that has pretty much stamped out what it used to be. Not to mention that many of us now see the rainbow flag as threatening and a symbol of homophobia, and we're no longer welcome at places like Pride because we're actual homosexuals and we're a threat to gender identity by existing. It's sad, I used to love going.

The practicalities are interesting and I always find it odd when people haven’t thought about why some groups are protected and others don’t require it.

For example, gay people need protection if they’re in a relationship as that is visible. I fully understand why their sexual orientation is relevant in equality legislation.

Asexuality and all other sexualities that are not related to a partner, and ought therefore to be invisible, are irrelevant. I can’t understand Stoneball et al raving on about rights for those people. What possible rights could they need? There’s no need whatsoever to disclose that information to anyone other than potential romantic or sexual partners.

I haven’t read the article. No one needs to come out at work anymore. They should just be able to talk casually about their weekend or their home life during normal times for chatting. From
that chat people might learn about or infer heterosexuality, homosexuality, your religion, your favorite color, the kind of food you enjoy, your hobbies, or any other aspects of your personality.

I don’t need to make a declarative statement about my sex life any more than I need to make a declarative statement about my favorite flower. If it comes up in conversation, I have nothing to hide and will gladly tell them I love lilacs.

Absolutely what Godwindar says. I'm old so have worked in the kind of half-progressive times when gay colleagues just never mentioned their partners, or a bit later on it might be carefully said 'oh and I think Jamie will bring his BOYFRIEND' and watch for your reaction. Physical homophobic attacks still happen , not to mention homophobic bullying - not all of us work at right-on workplaces and even if we do the bullying can still happen. And what about trans colleagues?

Somewhere I'm at odds with some GC posters is that I know a lot of trans people pass, particularly at work, or at the very least they may not be sure whetherthey pass or not. I really hope anyone could come out to me or in teams i am in and I will aim to be part of a positive and supportive reaction.

My impression from talking to gay friends/ colleagues is that it's exhausting having to constantly correct heteronormative assumptions and/or depending on the workplace/ person you are speaking to feeling pressure to cover up your same sex partner.

My social circle contains a mixture of people, some of whom are in same-sex relationships and have children so it's "normal" for me but I still fuck up at work sometimes and fail to realise that two women in front of me are actually both Mummy. Sometimes it's because culturally they don't want to openly tell me that. And sometimes it's because I'm an idiot.

And then I tell my colleagues to try to avoid the poor couple having to "come out" to the next staff member they encounter. But inevitably that staff member fails to remember and assumes that Mummy B is actually an aunt or some other random relation and the parents are back in the same awkward situation again. It must suck. And it doesn't happen if you are a heterosexual couple.

And then these reactions impact on our gay colleagues who feel that maybe there is some unarticulated homophobia and they cycle goes on.

This is a really heartening post. If only everyone possessed this level of critical thinking. (I’m looking at you @WandaWonder)

With respect, are you not just mistaking social norms with boring ole "hetereonormativity"? I really hate that term, can you tell? So dismissive.

Straight woman here, never had kids and got married (for the first time) in my 50s. I can relate to not relating to.social norms. You should hear some of the things people have said to, and about, me delivered as small talk. I try not to assume anything more menacing than my life being outside of the majority norm and people looking for common ground. Nothing more or less.

A tendency to assume most people are heterosexual isn't oppressive, it's just about numbers. Like someone mentioned above, a bit like assuming most people will celebrate Christmas. It's not something that is a big deal or implies anything about how or what people ought to be, it just requires a slight correction, no drama.

I don't think anyone minds people mentioning their partners, etc, what they object to is making sexual identity a thing at work. Rather like making religious identity a think at work. No one cares if you mention you were in church on the weekend, but they don't really care to have religion as a thing in the workplace.

What confuses me about this is when did sexuality become synonymous with identity? I don't understand that. I am heterosexual, but that's not my identity. Isn't it incredibly reductive for a homosexual person's identity to be that they are gay?

It's a weird link, but I remember chatting with a gay friend ages ago when there was a load of stuff about Dumbledore being confirmed by JKR as gay, and some people were whining that he wasn't represented as gay enough in the books. I remember my friend made the point that his being gay was about 10% of his personality. He was quite pissed off about the concept that his homosexuality was meant to permeate all aspects of his personality!

This is a good example of what I just said. I've had cases of clients where it was a man and his sister with his kids, and someone thought it was a couple, or one case recently where what we thought was a couple was a son and mother. We commonly get mums where we aren't initially sure if they are friends or a couple - I had a pair like that today.

The thing is, none of these have to be fraught. It is just the case that if you are in a situation that is less common, people will guess that it's a more common thing. They aren't being assholes, and it doesn't need to be fraught. People don't mind being corrected when they guessed wrong.

These things happen all the time - people often mispronounce my name - it can be said a few ways conventionally, but mine is the least common. It's not offensive. Sometimes I correct them, or sometimes not.

The demand that people pretend their brain isn't making best guesses constantly is just not useful and actually makes everything worse for everyone.

Agree. Every poster who has written this has no lived experience of being gay/lesbian. Most people don’t want accolades, they just want acceptance.