'Coming Out' should be consigned to history

[IcakethereforeIam]

I read this article yesterday and I've been thinking about it since because I found it interesting

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coming-out-at-work-should-be-consigned-to-past-insists-lawyer-wtdqqr3rv

https://archive.ph/OpYGu no paywall

I'm not a believer in 'bringing your whole self to work'. Some people's 'whole selves' could be quite detrimental to work. Conversely parts of someone's 'whole self' is none of works business. I might be extreme though, if I could have kept being pregnant from work I would have done.

That said, it's nice to have the option but I wish we were at the stage where being LGB is something completely unremarkable. Which got me thinking about the T and how that differs to sexual orientation. I think it's summed up by, MN permitting 👀, if a guy puts on a dress in the woods and there's no-one around, is he really trans?

Our social norms are still predominantly heteronormative, why do you dislike that phrase? Our traditions and culture remain dominantly judeo-Christian as well, is that phrasing ok?

The persisting heteronormative assumptions are also why you’ve had assumptions made about you for being child free and yes, I can see you’ll have many comments and assumptions over the years.

Yes. If anything, the bundling of LGB together with TQ+ is more likely to send me back into the closet. Stuff like Labour talking about prioritising LGBTQ+ healthcare when it’s completely obvious that this is nothing to do with LGB is simply embarrassing.

I’d like to get to the place where gay people could just chat naturally about their families etc without an announcement ie coming out

I’d separate T though as a different issue as women are impacted via spaces

But I thought we were there @EasternStandard pretty much?
I know there are some knuckle dragging types 🙄 who have an issue with same sex attraction (and probably are the same people who hold regressive views across the board) but someone being gay is hardly front page news for most people, is it? I'm asking genuinely BTW.

The way some people talk - I'm afraid particularly younger people - you'd think it was still the 1970s which is deeply depressing - and is not my experience of others attitudes to LGB.

I do wonder if the whole rainbow movement these days has more to do with wanting to not fit in, for some. To be elevated socially by difference. Who else gets an international, corporately sponsored holiday season just for existing?

Sadly, the identity politics movement is awash with cry-bullies and victim-bragging so its hard to know what the reality is regarding attitudes to LGB these days. I do know it's really not healthy to project worst-intentions on others or to hook your entire identity on one aspect of yourself.

@Darhon I dislike it because whenever I see it used, it's used to be dismissive of the general population. It smacks of elitism to me. There is nothing inherently wrong with social norms.

Can't read the article but I broadly agree with the title.

We're at work to work. Part of the work culture should be to be respectful to your colleagues which equates to keeping your negative opinions to yourself. If you don't like something keep it to yourself. People should be accepted for who/what they are at any point.

And that's a two way street.

I completely agree with you OP. Bring your whole self to work is a ludicrous idea. Bring the parts of yourself that are relevant to your job I say. I don't care who you chose to have sex with or what you do to your genitals as its completely irrelevant to your job, unless you work in a brothel. See also your religion, whether or not you're menopausal, how many kids you have etc.

All this was originally designed to prevent discrimination and/or your colleagues making inappropriate jokes. If that happens, go to HR, your sexual proclivities don't need to be broadcast round the office.

I would say where I am and people I know we are there

But I can’t really say for everyone as they may have different experiences

And I’m not gay so can’t speak from actual experience

Gay people may have to make corrections when people make wrong assumptions about their partner / potential partner. So in that sense they still need to "come out".
I agree that it would be good if special interest groups were not needed at work but it seems a position of privilege to say that they are not or that coming out doesn't matter.

I can't help thinking that coming out as non binary is a bit pointless and attention seeking. I was speaking to someone who has decided they want to come out as NB to their parents and I just thought what a dick move and feel sorry for the parents.

I don’t know if anyone has seen Andrew Scott wanting to do away with the term ‘openly gay’.
https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/01/08/andrew-scott-stop-saying-openly-gay-all-of-us-strangers/
Its actually quite funny when he points it out.

There is nothing wrong with hetronormality. The vast majority of people are heterosexuality, we just shouldn’t have an issue with people not being heterosexual, not pretend people aren’t.
Most people have 2 legs, some people have 1, we shouldn’t pretend the majority of people don’t have 2.

Why is it a 'position of privilege' to assume most people want to treat others - and be treated - with levels of cordiality and respect? Even those of us who've been through serious hardship can hold this belief actually
.

By 'privelge' do you mean "not having exactly the same issues to deal with that you have, OP? Cos you're right I have the 'privilege' of not having assumptions made about the sex of my partner. I can create quite a significant list of other ways my private lif gets outed in polite conversation.

My point is, I'm not convinced its helpful to focus so heavily on identity tribes. It doesn't seem to make anyone happy.

I completely agree with getting rid of 'openly gay' as it was historically used homophobically. I know people use it now to acknowledge that even though someone is apparently the first gay Prime Minister or whatever, the fact is they probably aren't the first. However, given that understanding and conception of sexuality was different in the past, it makes sense not to use a phrase which sounds pretty odd now.

Likewise, future conception of sexuality is changing. Hence the use of queer, which I know a lot of older people (like me) aren't wild about because of its use as abuse in the past. But I get that it's being reclaimed.

However, I don't love that people in heterosexual relationships are referring to themselves as queer essentially because of clothing or culture choices - I may be bisexual but no doubt most people using queer now would consider me describing myself as queer as non-legitimate because I'm in a relationship with a man and am GC and shop at M&S But culture and sexuality are always intertwined.

People often make assumptions about what someone means when they use certain terms. For example, I find it hard not to do a metaphorical eye roll when I see "cis heteronormativity" because I immediately suspect a worldview I find highly problematic. My assumption is that the writer thinks that there is something inherently inferior about any majority, and that minorities, particularly those which self identify as the most oppressed, are inherently superior. Cis heteronormativity appears to be a dismissive term.

I'm sure I use terms that invoke a similar reaction in other people.

I think it's worth examining why this thread is full of posts displaying hostility to the notion of people coming out in the workplace, and where that reflex is coming from. "Why do they have to tell everyone?" "Why does it matter? Plenty of people are already out and accepted."

Not wanting to chastise here, merely prompt reflection.

Not wanting to chastise here, merely prompt reflection.

... and patronise 😘

"Hostility' is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.

Why not engage with the questions politely asked instead? Perhaps we can all reflect on our assumptions?

A lot of straight people seem to think 'coming out at work' = calling a big meeting and telling your life story to your colleagues and bosses, complete with tears, rainbows and diagrams of sexual positions. In the real world that gay people (and hopefully some straight people too) live in, coming out means saying something as innocuous as, "My wife drives a Toyota Prius." If you are straight, you will never understand how making such a boring comment can be so fraught with stress, as there is always a chance you will get 'a reaction' (other than, "Oh, is it true that you only have to pay £10 p.a. car tax?").

For example, I find it hard not to do a metaphorical eye roll when I see "cis heteronormativity" because I immediately suspect a worldview I find highly problematic.

I do roll my eyes at ‘cis’, because it immediately puts me on alert for misogyny & homophobia disguised as inclusivity.

Same

The Glasgow Women’s Library exhibited some examples of modern lesbophobia recently. This is the kind of thing that would put young lesbians off coming out.

I'm sorry I don't get this at all. In 2024. My manager is married to a woman. when we first met her when she joined the team she said, me and my wife about something. Nobody batted an eyelid or gave a shit. Why would they. Everyone was just interested in whether she'd be a good manager or not.

if you're working somewhere where people would have an issue with that then you're in some terrible back water and any woman, gay, straight or bi should probably gtf out of. And I say that as a woman in IT which is still incredibly sexist. Nobody gaf whether you're gay or straight though.

I'm sorry you've had such bad experiences. Where I work (I think and I hope) nobody bats an eyelid. People will note it but not much else.

Edited for crap texting

The straight posters on here need to understand that while they may never have met a homophobe, those of us who are gay most certainly have.

We are apprehensive before using sexed pronouns for our partner for the first time (which is what adults usually mean by “come out”) because of personal experience, not because of social media-induced paranoia.

We understand that you and everyone you know doesn’t bat an eyelid. Good for you. Unfortunately there are plenty of people who still do - and worse. It’s not always the people you expect, and not everyone can move job/home to get away from them.

I'm sorry I don't get this at all.

Do you think this might possibly be because you aren't gay? How would you react if a man in your "incredibly sexist" world of IT said he "didn't get" your experience of sexism because he had never seen or experienced it himself? Would you say to yourself, "Oh, I must be wrong when I think I've experienced sexism because a man has told me I can't have?"

(Also, I can assure you, sexist men absolutely do "gaf" about whether someone is gay or straight.)

That's great that no one had a negative reaction when your boss mentioned her wife. I, too, have had many people have no negative reactions when I have mentioned my wife. I have also had reactions which were cringey, creepy, and downright homophobic, so the fear is always there. I'm sure your boss has also had negative reactions, as has every single gay person you know.

Perfectly put.

I wonder if some of these straight posters are also the type of white people who insist 'racism is no longer a thing in 2024'.