Starmer furious that Sunak should mention his definition of ‘woman’

[HagoftheNorth]

PMQ’s today, Sunak highlighted Starmer’s famous comments that some women have a penis. Starmer was furious that Sunak should make that comment while Mrs Ghey was in the chamber. Surely Starmer should realise that it is possible to be respectful and compassionate about trans people without parroting the insane lie that transwomen are women (because ‘woman’ is sex not gender)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68229785

I think our disagreement lies here lies in the fact that I believe it is no kind of harassment to correctly sex a person who sends you abusive tweets.

It's rather like the rape victims who've been compelled to call their rapists she.

@Veronicaisaflower

Trans women are not villified and murdered - the rate for murder of trans women is far lower than that for women. This is utterly mad. Women who would like to keep sex in sports and spaces have absolutely no issue with trans women living peaceful lives and accessing third spaces.

To be honest, if a trans women decided that it wasn't a good idea to play contact sport against biological women and joined a men's or open/mixed sex team, we would happily turn up to applaud - we would actively cheer on anyone who wants to challenge gender norms. We don't hate trans women. We just don't believe that they are biologically women, which is factually true.

Oh god save me from your lecturing

There are many trans women who do not support trans women in women's sport.

And also you are using a child's murder to push your own agenda. Basically saying that if trans women were allowed in women's sport this child would not have been murdered.

Yet women have been questioned by the police under caution for correctly sexing males. Sometimes these are males who have made violent threats over the internet to them

And the Tories have done nothing to stop this happening. Why? Because they don't actually really give a toss about any of it, except when they can use it as a weapon.

Oh the irony!🤣🤣🤣

There's no shame in wanting girls and women to have single sex spaces. My dd is 15 yo and I do not want her to have biological males in her school toilets or sharing a netball court with her.

😂😂 right back at you 😂

Still no answer on rape victim using ‘she’

Does it tell you a lot about a person

I agree, women have been treated badly by both the Tories and the Labour Party.

This is why it is important that conversations are not shut down.

This is why it is important that we ask questions about the Labour Party's intentions prior to them forming the next government (which seems quite a likely outcome).

As far as I can tell Labour are not going to make it any easier for women, I've explained my reasoning for this throughout this and other threads.

(And by the way, I would call Brianna "she", but I would refer to her in category terms as someone who is male if I were talking about whether she should play rugby competitively against biological women. That's not misgendering)

How many people do you think actually have a GRC? It's barely any - about 5000 people. If anyone is pushing "changing legal sex" it's not working

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/gender-recognition-certificate-applications-and-outcomes/gender-recognition-certificate-applications-and-outcomes

Unhinged is as unhinged does. I'm a feminist, and always have been. But we don't make society fairer for women by vilifying trans people; they are two completely separate issues. You are in the grip of a bizarre hysteria, and you only have to look at the people you align yourself with (Putin and 30p Lee among them!) to see how truly bizarre it is. The vast majority of transphobes are also deeply, unashamedly misogynist. But you embrace them regardless, just because they share your hatred of trans people.

How do you know which males in female spaces have a GRC?

One man in our spaces is one too many. You can keep your 'oh it's just a few' argument.

Sorry, I don't know what you mean about the rape victim? I stopped reading the thread for a while.

The numbers of people getting a GRC aren't really relevant when the providers of single sex spaces can't ask for evidence of them.

Mridul Wadhwa (trans woman) was successfully appointed to post reserved for women as the head of the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, Wadhwa does not have a GRC. Wadhwa has told women rape victims that they should 'reframe their trauma' rather than object to having males involved in their therapy.

I suspect the easing of the GRC process proposed by Starmer is to encourage more males to be legal women. This will make it harder for them to be excluded from women's single sex spaces as they will have the protected characteristics of both sex and gender reassignment.

True

Why can’t women retain single sex spaces

For our dignity, safety and privacy plus fairness in sports

Ah I see ‘not wanting men however they present in women’s single sex spaces means you’re all vile raging transphobes’ can be ticked off the bingo card

any woman who thinks a man can identify himself into for example a woman’s rape survivors support group by declaring himself female and that women should accept this is not a feminist

Your belief isn't relevant to the law unfortunately. I thought you would know that as a solicitor.

A lot of abusive men don't recognise their stalking/harassment as such, they think its justified. It is then up to the police to investigate and decide. Same as this.

Unfortunately abusive males will misuse the law to persecute women. But the harassment law is a good thing for women overall.

Veronica, what is it that all transwomen have in common with all women, but no men?

This is not supposed to be a gotcha - I genuinely don’t understand, and it would really help if someone could explain

The oddity is that people still claim that they would vote Conservative despite the fact that the Conservatives have had 14 years to sort out the GRA and haven't done so.

Completely irrelevant to your point about "pushing changing legal sex"

@IClaudine

If you’re not just evading because it’s hard here you go

Do you think it should be across the board out of interest? A rape victim needs to use ‘she’?

Flamme tories are bad, Labour would be worse, who is there to vote for?

Labour aren't making it easier. Just less bureaucratic.
Tories are also making it less bureaucratic.