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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Starmer furious that Sunak should mention his definition of ‘woman’

1000 replies

HagoftheNorth · 07/02/2024 15:11

PMQ’s today, Sunak highlighted Starmer’s famous comments that some women have a penis. Starmer was furious that Sunak should make that comment while Mrs Ghey was in the chamber. Surely Starmer should realise that it is possible to be respectful and compassionate about trans people without parroting the insane lie that transwomen are women (because ‘woman’ is sex not gender)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68229785

Rishi Sunak

Rishi Sunak faces calls to apologise over trans jibe to Starmer at PMQs

The PM ridiculed Sir Keir Starmer's "definition of a woman" as Brianna Ghey's mother was visiting Parliament.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68229785

OP posts:
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lifeturnsonadime · 09/02/2024 08:49

@Inisceal

If any of you were the mothers of a transgender child you would be aware of how difficult it is for transgender youth to exist in society. It is not easy, and it is not a choice. Believe me, no one would choose the stares and the judgement. They just want to live their lives and feel like themselves.

I really do feel for you. Most of us on here are mothers. Some of us are mothers of trans identifying children, I'm the parent of two vulnerable autistic teens, one of them was gender non conforming pre-puberty.

I think, in so far as children are concerned, you'll find that there is concern of many about the reasons that so many vulnerable children are now identifying as trans. This is one of the reasons I really don't want conversations to be shut down. Some of the children who identify as trans at a young age change their minds and I find it concerning that independent reports like Cass show that social transition is not neutral. As a society we don't have all of the answers for this yet, but silencing discussions about the reality of the situation isn't in the children's best interests, even if it makes for uncomfortable reading.

In addition no one is saying that all or even the majority of trans women are a risk to women, but it's not right to ask women to disregard the fact that some are. Women have been harmed by trans women in single sex spaces. Women are losing out to trans women in sport and prizes.

None of this comes from a place of hatred of anyone, it comes from a desire to have a fair society where everyone's needs can be met.

We can't achieve any of that if we can't have conversations.

We have just come out of an era of no debate, and what's made so many of us concerned about the PMQ is that Starmer has tried to restart that by using Brianna's murder to close down important conversations.

Flowers
AdamRyan · 09/02/2024 08:50

ResisterRex · 09/02/2024 08:40

Where was Starmer's emotional intelligence when he decided he knew what was in a woman's mind, and that it was ethical to use his imagined feelings of someone else to shut down debate, in order to deflect from his flip flopping? Where was his actual intelligence when he decided to dice with the rules? He could end up having to apologise for this. How will that be a win? erskinemay.parliament.uk/section/4880/reference-to-the-public

I highly doubt he's going to have to apologise. Sunak also addressed Esther Ghey remember. This is just Tories trying to flip the narrative. Classic DARVO.

In any case it pales into insignificance compared to Conservatives playing fast and loose with the rules. Breaking the law in "limited and specific" circumstances? Deliberately misleading parliament? Breaking laws they implemented, then claiming those laws are ridiculous? Putting in place legislation that a particular country is "safe" while simultaneously accepting asylum seekers from that country? How about all the politicians (including the PM now Shock) earning £1000 an hour for pushing propaganda on GB News? Giving billions of public money to their mates via various fast lanes?

If Starmer is made to apologise while all that is going on, it just shows what an absolute farce the Conservatives have made of our democracy.

StarlightLady · 09/02/2024 08:50

HagoftheNorth · 09/02/2024 06:14

It just occurred to me that everyone is assuming Mrs Ghey would be upset by the mention of biological reality. Yet we’ve had more than a few posters here who are GC, and their children are trans. It is perfectly possible to love your child beyond measure, and still disagree with their beliefs.

I don’t think that Starmer, or the press, or anyone should be assuming they know how Mrs Ghey feels

But should we overlook that Brianna's father has said the PM should apologise? Nothing spoken by the PM on that occasion had anything to do with the question that the PM was asked at PMQs.

No, l don’t think a woman can have a penis. But that was not the question asked at PMQs.

Veronicaisaflower · 09/02/2024 08:56

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

EasternStandard · 09/02/2024 08:56

It takes emotional intelligence to realise women are impacted by the GRA and ongoing

There’s a blindness to that from a fair few in the media, politicians and some strong supporters of the latter who agree with gender ideology

BIossomtoes · 09/02/2024 08:58

Bululu · 09/02/2024 04:32

Does KS is aware this stupid game is going against him or is he celebrating his political point scoring ? 🤔

Edited

It’s not. Both Starmer and his party are way ahead in the polls.

IClaudine · 09/02/2024 08:58

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Posters have misgendered her on this thread. I think MN might have deleted some of the posts.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 09/02/2024 08:59

But should we overlook that Brianna's father has said the PM should apologise?

I thought people wanted sunak to apologise because of Mrs Ghey was present?

Why does he need to apologise to someone who wasnt there?

lifeturnsonadime · 09/02/2024 09:00

You might not have actively called for her murder, but you'd have wanted her excluded from women's sports and "women-only spaces", those holy cows you're so obsessed with. Shame on you.

What a vile comment.

No one hates anyone, no one wants anyone murdered.

As for single sex spaces and sports, we want trans women excluded because they are male not because they are trans. This is to protect the safety and dignity of females and to provide fairness in sport.

IClaudine · 09/02/2024 09:01

BIossomtoes · 09/02/2024 08:58

It’s not. Both Starmer and his party are way ahead in the polls.

Yep. This is going to lose him zero votes, despite the frothing and DARVOing.

Looking forward to Sunak making a tit of himself on GB news. Wonder what clangers he will drop then.

EasternStandard · 09/02/2024 09:01

The anger over ‘misgendering’ is a reminder of what a incredibly bad law the GRA is

Some may not be happy until it is legislated against too. Full Orwellian style

No thanks

IClaudine · 09/02/2024 09:04

There really is some paranoia here. People are not going to be locked up for misgendering and no new prisons will need to be built to house the misgenderers as pp suggested.

ResisterRex · 09/02/2024 09:05

"Classic DARVO"

EasternStandard · 09/02/2024 09:05

IClaudine · 09/02/2024 09:04

There really is some paranoia here. People are not going to be locked up for misgendering and no new prisons will need to be built to house the misgenderers as pp suggested.

You and others sound keen enough

Look how upset you are over misgendering

IClaudine · 09/02/2024 09:06

@EasternStandard it is not about anger, it is about respect. Brianna identified as female at the time of her murder. It does no harm to respect that. What is the point of misgendering her now, it seems spiteful.

lifeturnsonadime · 09/02/2024 09:07

IClaudine · 09/02/2024 09:04

There really is some paranoia here. People are not going to be locked up for misgendering and no new prisons will need to be built to house the misgenderers as pp suggested.

Yet women have been questioned by the police under caution for correctly sexing males. Sometimes these are males who have made violent threats over the internet to them. So it's probably not quite a far fetched as you think. Especially given that Starmer has spoken to the LBGTQ community recently talking about making hate crime (presumably including misgendering -he hasn't specifically excluded it) an aggravated offence when Labour are elected.

AdamRyan · 09/02/2024 09:07

EasternStandard · 09/02/2024 08:56

It takes emotional intelligence to realise women are impacted by the GRA and ongoing

There’s a blindness to that from a fair few in the media, politicians and some strong supporters of the latter who agree with gender ideology

I don't think you understand what emotional intelligence is.
Recognising the impact of the GRA on women is logical intelligence.
Recognising someone may be genuinely upset by something that doesn't bother you, and having empathy for their position is emotional intelligence.

Veronicaisaflower · 09/02/2024 09:09

lifeturnsonadime · 09/02/2024 09:00

You might not have actively called for her murder, but you'd have wanted her excluded from women's sports and "women-only spaces", those holy cows you're so obsessed with. Shame on you.

What a vile comment.

No one hates anyone, no one wants anyone murdered.

As for single sex spaces and sports, we want trans women excluded because they are male not because they are trans. This is to protect the safety and dignity of females and to provide fairness in sport.

See, this is a small piece of the puzzle that makes up a society in which trans people are othered, vilified and ultimately murdered. Well done.

EasternStandard · 09/02/2024 09:10

you'd have been just as hateful about her as you are about others

This post in its entirety is off the scale.

I expect they are not alone given the scale of death threats, violence and threats of violence, loss of livelihood already going on for women

I’m sure pre GRA not many thought changing legal sex would be so widely pushed as a solution to gender dysphoria, I mean someone would point out the impact on women but here we are

IClaudine · 09/02/2024 09:11

EasternStandard · 09/02/2024 09:05

You and others sound keen enough

Look how upset you are over misgendering

Don't be so utterly ridiculous. No one on this thread has suggested people should be locked up or charged with a criminal for simply misgendering a person.

But deliberate misgendering does tell you a lot about a person.

EasternStandard · 09/02/2024 09:11

AdamRyan · 09/02/2024 09:07

I don't think you understand what emotional intelligence is.
Recognising the impact of the GRA on women is logical intelligence.
Recognising someone may be genuinely upset by something that doesn't bother you, and having empathy for their position is emotional intelligence.

Nope your Starmer is a lumpen brick on this including any intelligence

AdamRyan · 09/02/2024 09:12

lifeturnsonadime · 09/02/2024 09:07

Yet women have been questioned by the police under caution for correctly sexing males. Sometimes these are males who have made violent threats over the internet to them. So it's probably not quite a far fetched as you think. Especially given that Starmer has spoken to the LBGTQ community recently talking about making hate crime (presumably including misgendering -he hasn't specifically excluded it) an aggravated offence when Labour are elected.

I mean thats not quite what happens is it?
Usually some spiteful male complains of harassment due to "persistent misgendering". Harassment is in fact a crime. Therefore the police are doing their job and investigating it.

"Harassment is behaviour intended to cause a person alarm or distress. The behaviour must occur on more than one occasion but it does not have the be the same kind of behaviour on each occasion."

www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/outlines/harassment-and-stalking/

lifeturnsonadime · 09/02/2024 09:13

Veronicaisaflower · 09/02/2024 09:09

See, this is a small piece of the puzzle that makes up a society in which trans people are othered, vilified and ultimately murdered. Well done.

I am sorry you feel this way.

Making society fair for women is not an anti trans sentiment.

Accusing women who want fairness for women of being responsible for the murder of trans people is off the scale unhinged.

EasternStandard · 09/02/2024 09:14

IClaudine · 09/02/2024 09:11

Don't be so utterly ridiculous. No one on this thread has suggested people should be locked up or charged with a criminal for simply misgendering a person.

But deliberate misgendering does tell you a lot about a person.

Well it might to you

Deliberate down playing of gender ideology and its impact on women says a lot to me about anyone

And that includes upholding inaccurate speech and pronouns

Do you think it should be across the board out of interest? A rape victim needs to use ‘she’?

AdamRyan · 09/02/2024 09:14

EasternStandard · 09/02/2024 09:11

Nope your Starmer is a lumpen brick on this including any intelligence

Well done for demonstrating that you can't understand the concept. I wasn't talking about Starmer. I was talking about humans writ large.

It does explain why some posters are so adamant that they have to "speak their truth" regardless of if it's an appropriate time/place

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