Starmer furious that Sunak should mention his definition of ‘woman’

[HagoftheNorth]

PMQ’s today, Sunak highlighted Starmer’s famous comments that some women have a penis. Starmer was furious that Sunak should make that comment while Mrs Ghey was in the chamber. Surely Starmer should realise that it is possible to be respectful and compassionate about trans people without parroting the insane lie that transwomen are women (because ‘woman’ is sex not gender)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68229785

ah yes not so positive

No. Not in this setting.

It’s hard to convince with a middle ground as it requires situations where women say ok to males and they are no longer single sex spaces

I am not setting out to convince any one here as it would be a waste of my time.

What are your views on trans men? All the anti trans arguments seem to be very one sided?

Yes probably as a middle ground doesn’t really exist

Not just you but other posters who try can’t seem to get to one that works

I think that RS failed to think on his feet about Mrs Ghey's visit and making the joke was a bit crass on that date.

But other than that it was an acceptable joke to make - Starmer is a flip flopper and trans women are not women in most people's eyes for all purposes. That's just a fact - people are being kind when they use female pronouns (and I would do so myself if asked), but most don't actually think biological sex is irrelevant, it's a fiction that people choose to adopt (and a majority don't agree that the fiction should prevail in prisons, single sex wards, sports etc).

I'm disappointed that everyone is so interested in mud slinging and extreme views (TWAW is an extreme view, which almost no one actually fully believes, so the real question is inclusion vs fairness/safety and other policy based reasons, which requires respectful debate and evidence based discussion).

It would be helpful if we could just have a term that is understood to refer to an adult human female (ie not trans) for the purposes of debating policy though without trans campaigners insisting that it must refer to trans women otherwise it is hurtful and exclusionary, otherwise we just end up with all the energy being sucked up debating for the nth time the words we should use for people.

@VimtoVimto

Personally, I don't care what trans men do - they are welcome in female spaces. It's for men to decide on their spaces really.

Everybody here thinks trans people should be able to live freely

See I think part of the problem is that different people mean different things by a statement as seemingly innocuous as ‘live freely’. Or ‘trans rights’.

If by living freely it mean that a trans women (and generally we seem to be speaking about TW and not TM) should be able to go about their lives and present in traditionally female clothing without harassment, ridicule, comment or abuse. Of course. Everyone here AFAIK would agree without hesitation.

If by living freely it would mean that they are free to enter any spaces they wish including spaces reserved for women of the biological kind. Then no. Their freeness doesn’t get to impact or restrict women’s ability to live their lives freely.

Indeed, Adam Ryan tried that discussion.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4997392-lets-have-a-poll?page=17&reply=132722571

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68239233

Is Keir Starmer shocked by his own inability to put forward reliable numbers yet

His colleagues are

Yes, it was interesting. A sizeable minority (42%) on this board think third spaces are the way to go as opposed to 51% biological sex only.

It makes me think that the "Repeal the GRA, single sex spaces for women only" are the GC equivalent of TWAW.

The word you are looking for is Woman.
No need for any other word.
The other lot are Men.

@IClaudine

I think you are being pretty disingenuous. Most people who are "in the middle" can cite at least one example e.g sports, where biological females might be prioritised over inclusion. I understand your desire to "be kind", but you come across as someone who hasn't given it much thought besides not wanting people to be mean to trans people. Trouble is, "being mean to trans people" basically means, if you are a TRA, anything that doesn't recognise that trans women are women for all purposes. Being kind isn't the middle ground position, it's just capitulation, unfortunately

Better convince TRAs on third spaces then

Good luck

It’s generally not this board though but that way to male dominated ones —->

@oldwomanwhoruns

Yes, I am happy for it to be woman.

But that's the bit that Keir Starmer doesn't get - if it isn't woman, then people want to use female (which is also now co-opted by the same lobby). It's very tiresome!

@AdamRyan

But third spaces for Trans people still means single sex spaces for biological women?

If you look on the thread that blackbird linked you'll see what happens to people who answer questions. I don't blame claudine for not wanting a slice of that to be honest

Yes I’m not sure what the issue is for women

They need to convince males not here

51% of respondents to a poll who actually clicked on an option think spaces should be segregated by sex, so that means
a) the same respondents all want the GRA repealed and believe in single sex spaces and
b) that’s the equivalent of a mindless falsehood chanted by TRAs😵‍💫

Leaping tall buildings with a single post now.

Third spaces?? Which will contain a mix of middle-aged, fetishistic men, and confused teenage girls/young women?

What could possibly go wrong?

This whole debate is so absurd. Humans can't change sex, men can't be women, women can't be men, but heaven forbid you say that because you might hurt someone's feelings. I read posts like Adam's, and I think: how the hell as a society did we get to be this stupid? We can send men to the moon and we can split the atom but apparently many of us are intellectually indistinguishable from people 500 years ago who believed in witchcraft.

Haha good work guys. Nice derail. Why not take it back onto the poll thread, this is a thread about the crassness of Sunaks behaviour yesterday

but you come across as someone who hasn't given it much thought besides not wanting people to be mean to trans people

You couldn't be more wrong. I have given it a lot of thought over recent years for very personal reasons.

What I don't want to do is give my views on a thread that is so completely hostile to trans people as I don't want to align myself with that hostility in any way.