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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Starmer furious that Sunak should mention his definition of ‘woman’

1000 replies

HagoftheNorth · 07/02/2024 15:11

PMQ’s today, Sunak highlighted Starmer’s famous comments that some women have a penis. Starmer was furious that Sunak should make that comment while Mrs Ghey was in the chamber. Surely Starmer should realise that it is possible to be respectful and compassionate about trans people without parroting the insane lie that transwomen are women (because ‘woman’ is sex not gender)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68229785

Rishi Sunak

Rishi Sunak faces calls to apologise over trans jibe to Starmer at PMQs

The PM ridiculed Sir Keir Starmer's "definition of a woman" as Brianna Ghey's mother was visiting Parliament.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68229785

OP posts:
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18
StarlightLady · 08/02/2024 18:06

I repeat, PMQs is for questions to be asked of the PM. No questions were asked of the PM about this matter. The PM raising it was inappropriate.

JSMill · 08/02/2024 18:10

Gender and sex have always had two separate definitions. Gender is a social construct. Sex is biological. End of.

Merrymouse · 08/02/2024 18:11

Aceoftrumps · 08/02/2024 17:31

The fact remains you cannot change sex. Gender and sex have two separate meanings in today's world, no matter what the law states. As it is badly worded it may well end up being challenged. As for Sunak, I don't know his full views on the subject or what he intends, but I believe his time as PM will be curtailed at the next election. With Starmer as PM, I do believe self-id will become a reality, no matter what he currently says.

I agree that it is worded badly. Tbe Conservatives have had 14 years to change that wording and have done nothing, so, absent any other information we can only assume they are happy with it and Sunak is a hypocrite who is only interested in this issue as a culture war.

I do not think Starmer would introduce self ID because (like other politicians) he has belatedly become too aware of consequences.

Boomboom22 · 08/02/2024 18:12

And we have it spelled out so so clearly. Everyone objecting to what sunak said is doing so because they believe brianna was actually a girl. I wouldn't be surprised if quire a few posters genuinely don't understand they were male.

It was crass because she is a she, twaw and to say otherwise apparently is wrong.

Those who find starmers use of a murder to deflect from the fact he u turns and does not know, which is a major safeguarding fail, has been reasonable and erudite.

How anyone could spin this as sunak being wrong to say it is what is crass. Starmer taking advantage of the presence of a parent to get pity is crass. Sunak mentioning that women exist can only be crass if you think it is wrong to acknowledge bio sex at all.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 08/02/2024 18:16

AdamRyan · 08/02/2024 16:10

I very clearly don't think Starmer has manipulated anyone and assume that's a typo.

After reading that article, I think what's happened is the Malcolm Tucker-type comms lead in CCHQ went "fuckity fuckity fuckity fuck" at PMQs yesterday, there was a desperate scrabble around to find some kind of narrative to cover it up by blaming Starmer, this is what they came up with.

If I was running a comms campaign like that (and had no morals) I'd start with social media, brief my friendly journalists so they could start writing articles for the next days press, and then get the faithful calling phone ins the next day.

I have no other explanation for why there's this weird narrative running counter to what we all saw happening with our own eyes.

I have no idea why you specifically are so adamant Sunak did nothing wrong. It's a very black and white position, especially for someone who wants to vote Labout but feels politically homeless. Hey ho. Each to their own.

Edited

Alternatively, given the actual video evidence and hansard showing beyond any shadow of doubt or debate that it was Starmer who brought up Brianna Ghey, it is really, really bizarre to see some people trying to feed us such a blatantly false counternarrative. Did the dastardly comms team who got fake people to ring the phone-ins also alter those records?

As an aside, Starmer is whinily blaming the Tories for his decision to scrap the £28 billion green pledge which would be quite funny given that he's said so many times how the buck stops with him - if it wasn't so bloody awful that is.

SinnerBoy · 08/02/2024 18:19

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 17:03

As well as overblown, mawkish hyperbole.

Your opinion of it is considerably higher than mine.

IClaudine · 08/02/2024 18:21

In the way they talk about Brianna, the entire Ghey family has shown us an idea of trans people that isn’t often conveyed in public: not ostracised, but surrounded by people who loved her. Not freakish or somehow shameful, but recognisable in her vulnerability to any parent of teenagers trying to find their way. Much as the family of the MP Jo Cox did after her murder, by meeting hate with love, the Gheys have ensured their daughter is not merely remembered for the awful way she died, but for the values by which her family clearly live. That is an extraordinary achievement in the midst of grief, and it offers the kind of rare, galvanising moment in public life to which all political parties could have responded in kind, by quietly undertaking not to exploit an obviously sensitive issue for electoral gain.

That doesn’t mean leaders can’t talk about trans rights, given it’s an issue of legitimate public interest, or be asked searching questions about policy – including how Starmer got from his 2021 view (supportive of self-identification for trans people, and insistent that it’s “not right” to say only women can have a cervix), to his 2023 position, that self-ID isn’t happening and a woman is an adult human female. Voters deserve clarity on something with serious implications not just for trans people, but all those anxious about women’s legal rights to single-sex spaces, say, or fairness in sport. But it’s precisely because these are serious questions that they deserve to be handled responsibly.

That means not making transness the punchline of a bad joke, any more than you would race or gender. It means no gratuitous sideswipes or spuriously dragging it into every unrelated political attack, and generally not inflicting unnecessary drive-by pain on people who are non-combatants in this election. Wasn’t Sunak’s whole point supposed to be that there’s an embarrassment of broken Labour pledges to choose from? So choose some. Just don’t break something more precious in the process.

The above is pretty much how I feel about this whole shameful episode.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/08/brianna-ghey-parents-love-rishi-sunak-cheap-laughs-election

Brianna Ghey’s parents met hate with love, and Sunak chased cheap laughs. That says it all about him and his party | Gaby Hinsliff

The PM’s bad joke revealed his inability to read a room. How on earth will he cope in an actual election campaign, asks Guardian columnist Gaby Hinsliff

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/08/brianna-ghey-parents-love-rishi-sunak-cheap-laughs-election

EasternStandard · 08/02/2024 18:23

The amount of times journalists use trans and not women’s rights

JanesLittleGirl · 08/02/2024 18:26

StarlightLady · 08/02/2024 18:06

I repeat, PMQs is for questions to be asked of the PM. No questions were asked of the PM about this matter. The PM raising it was inappropriate.

PMQs is a quaint British custom rather like Changing the Guard which has lost its original meaning. Nowadays it takes the form of bleedingly obvious questions from the Opposition dressed up as amazing gotchas which are completely ignored by the PM who says whatever he thinks will get the biggest laugh. All other members of the HoC are required to act as if they are the audience at an Edwardian music hall.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/02/2024 18:47

I repeat, PMQs is for questions to be asked of the PM.

That's as may be, but it certainly isn't unusual for the PM to challenge the opposition as well. It's not specific to this incident so your contention is largely irrelevant to it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/02/2024 18:53

The amount of times journalists use trans and not women’s rights

Quite. The definition of a woman is as much about women's rights.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/02/2024 18:53

Sorry meant to quote @EasternStandard

GailBlancheViola · 08/02/2024 18:57

EasternStandard · 08/02/2024 18:23

The amount of times journalists use trans and not women’s rights

Or politicians - mention the definition of a woman or even the word woman and immediately it has something to do with trans and we have the incoming broo-haha.

bombastix · 08/02/2024 18:57

I don't agree with Kier Starmer, but dear god Rishi Sunak's advisers need a clear out. 20 points behind and he does this and 1000 quid bet.

If he has a point to make, maybe better to set out his stall in a more dignified way. PMQs is a loser ticket for this issue as he's just found out. Too complex for a one liner, and all the attention is on him. People will easily forget the detail of Starmer's response unless they are very engaged, and most are not.

EasternStandard · 08/02/2024 18:57

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/02/2024 18:53

The amount of times journalists use trans and not women’s rights

Quite. The definition of a woman is as much about women's rights.

It’s madness. Women should be central to the definition of the word.

And yet males are via trans. How did we get so invisible

An Orwellian mess via the law

Bululu · 08/02/2024 18:58

I dislike KS for creating ‘this drama. He is just so pathetic.

Bululu · 08/02/2024 19:03

Plus glad Rishi did not apologise to appease the left.

bombastix · 08/02/2024 19:04

Bululu · 08/02/2024 19:03

Plus glad Rishi did not apologise to appease the left.

It's the father wants the apology? Is he left?

IClaudine · 08/02/2024 19:09

Penny Mordaunt also said Sunak should "reflect". Is she a leftie too?

ResisterRex · 08/02/2024 19:12

She's a cynical opportunist, beholden to the T, just like Starmer

SinnerBoy · 08/02/2024 19:13

IClaudine · Today 19:09

Penny Mordaunt also said Sunak should "reflect". Is she a leftie too?

Far from it, but she is a trans zealot.

Boomboom22 · 08/02/2024 19:16

bombastix · 08/02/2024 19:04

It's the father wants the apology? Is he left?

What the father who on fb denies his son is trans and wouldn't call them she?
Also this child couldn't go to school, couldn't arrive on time, didn't take a bus ever, the parents were split and not agreed on affirmation.
So why it's being presented now as she was from a fantastic nuclear family is beyond me.
Her mother seems to be a great person, doing the best she could, and now continuing to work for good. It's very clear from her statement she was not impressed with starmer and felt it was entirely inappropriate to bring up brianna. It also appears to be against parliamentary code so I'd hope starmer will be pulled up and apologise. Rishi has already held a compassionate and dignified reality line. As has Kemi.

bombastix · 08/02/2024 19:16

Well... I think from a position of relative strength Sunak has had a PR mess and actually made himself look worse. Had it come from a robust policy basis, actual legal changes in motion it would have had some force of attack.

I actually agree with him; but politically he will never deliver anything on the point. Weak

IClaudine · 08/02/2024 19:17

Beholden to the T? You mean she think trans people should be able to live freely.

Never thought I would have anything in common with her.

It will be interesting to revisit this thread in a few years.

AdamRyan · 08/02/2024 19:18

Boomboom22 · 08/02/2024 19:16

What the father who on fb denies his son is trans and wouldn't call them she?
Also this child couldn't go to school, couldn't arrive on time, didn't take a bus ever, the parents were split and not agreed on affirmation.
So why it's being presented now as she was from a fantastic nuclear family is beyond me.
Her mother seems to be a great person, doing the best she could, and now continuing to work for good. It's very clear from her statement she was not impressed with starmer and felt it was entirely inappropriate to bring up brianna. It also appears to be against parliamentary code so I'd hope starmer will be pulled up and apologise. Rishi has already held a compassionate and dignified reality line. As has Kemi.

What a horrible post - reported Sad

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