Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Starmer furious that Sunak should mention his definition of ‘woman’

1000 replies

HagoftheNorth · 07/02/2024 15:11

PMQ’s today, Sunak highlighted Starmer’s famous comments that some women have a penis. Starmer was furious that Sunak should make that comment while Mrs Ghey was in the chamber. Surely Starmer should realise that it is possible to be respectful and compassionate about trans people without parroting the insane lie that transwomen are women (because ‘woman’ is sex not gender)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68229785

Rishi Sunak

Rishi Sunak faces calls to apologise over trans jibe to Starmer at PMQs

The PM ridiculed Sir Keir Starmer's "definition of a woman" as Brianna Ghey's mother was visiting Parliament.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68229785

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
WickedSerious · 08/02/2024 09:13

LadyWithLapdog · 08/02/2024 09:08

…because she was late. Weasel Sunak had already prepared his speech, regardless, thinking she’d be there. It’s such a mess.

He didn't mention her or her son though

Apollo441 · 08/02/2024 09:13

EasternStandard · 08/02/2024 09:10

Surely Esther Grey will only be in the building for that week, he can’t bring her back every time

But yes he might try

Women's rights gone because he is a coward who manipulates stories to hide behind

Edited

Once bitten twice shy. The way the media have framed it will make it seem like he is being insensitive. Women's rights are complex in comparison to a sound bite and the press are only interested in sound bites.

JacksonLambsEatIvy · 08/02/2024 09:14

WishIMite · 08/02/2024 09:07

This thread is depressing. Starmer wasn’t scoring political points, he was acting with courtesy in pointing out that it was inappropriate at that point for Sunak to fuck about with that issue. He was entirely right. I’d hope that anyone would have stood up for the family at that point. There’s a time and place and that wasn’t it.

I fundamentally disagree.

He was absolutely trying to score points. And yes, he’s succeeded in making discussion of issues he doesn’t want discussed taboo.

But the 2020s are the don’t think; be kind era. So people will insist on defending a man playing politics with a bereaved family

LadyWithLapdog · 08/02/2024 09:17

WickedSerious · 08/02/2024 09:13

He didn't mention her or her son though

There, you’ve got it out if your system and you can start your day so pleased with yourself. It was a son. Not a daughter. (We agree with you, truly. You can’t change sex.) A self-satisfied pat on the back. Applause from the gallery.

PaperWalkAndTalk · 08/02/2024 09:18

Flamme · 08/02/2024 09:03

This is really almost as crass as Sunak's statement. People around here are so bloody obsessed that they can't work out that the fact that something may be true doesn't mean you have to churn it out at every opportunity, no matter how irrelevant or unnecessary it is, and no matter how much it may hurt someone else.

This really comes to the crux of the matter, don't state the truth because someone could be offended by the truth and reality.

We're in such a mess (Starmer for instance being worried about stating biological fact, and various NGOs influencing policies, be it at government or company level), because policies are being made around not upsetting some people (whilst upsetting a massive majority).

WickedSerious · 08/02/2024 09:19

LadyWithLapdog · 08/02/2024 09:17

There, you’ve got it out if your system and you can start your day so pleased with yourself. It was a son. Not a daughter. (We agree with you, truly. You can’t change sex.) A self-satisfied pat on the back. Applause from the gallery.

That's alright then,my work here is done.

I'm off to strangle some kittens.

Flamme · 08/02/2024 09:20

PaperWalkAndTalk · 08/02/2024 09:18

This really comes to the crux of the matter, don't state the truth because someone could be offended by the truth and reality.

We're in such a mess (Starmer for instance being worried about stating biological fact, and various NGOs influencing policies, be it at government or company level), because policies are being made around not upsetting some people (whilst upsetting a massive majority).

Yet another post that swerves straight past the point. This was not a debate about gender or anything similar. Sunak could have made his point, such as it was, without mentioning that topic. But he was so in love with how clever he thought he was being that he totally failed to take ordinary human consideration into account.

LadyWithLapdog · 08/02/2024 09:21

@WickedSerious there should be a thread where everyone could come on of a morning and type out how you can’t change sex and boys can’t be girls and all the other biological truths. Get it out if your system every morning. Save some kittens.

HymnToGrace · 08/02/2024 09:22

I'm a GC Dad; I've been desperately trying to navigate this nonsense with my 'gender' non-conforming kid for the last 3 years and keep them safe from harm.

You're deluded if you think this was anything other than a massive, crass, unforced error by Sunak. I despair. The only hope is that Labour decide the risks from weaponising this (thereby drawing attention to their own inconsistency, internal divisions and foolishness) are too high to press the issue. But it also means Sunak will have to avoid the topic from now on. The man is an idiot.

IClaudine · 08/02/2024 09:22

WickedSerious · 08/02/2024 09:13

He didn't mention her or her son though

You know something? I, probably like loads of people, have always thought that the GC movement has some legitimate points. But it is clear that some of you go far beyond legitimate points. Your hatred is clear.

Stop misgendering Brianna. It does no harm to you to respect her gender identity now.

oldwomanwhoruns · 08/02/2024 09:24

Until Starmer admits that women are Adult Human Females, he will face this every time he stands up in the Commons.

It's on Starmer to get back to the real world. Not on Sunak to Be Kind.

PaperWalkAndTalk · 08/02/2024 09:25

Flamme · 08/02/2024 09:20

Yet another post that swerves straight past the point. This was not a debate about gender or anything similar. Sunak could have made his point, such as it was, without mentioning that topic. But he was so in love with how clever he thought he was being that he totally failed to take ordinary human consideration into account.

No, you are swerving the point which is before stating biological fact you should think of who it potentially offends, therefore the use of emotional blackmail to silence the issue.

EasternStandard · 08/02/2024 09:25

HymnToGrace · 08/02/2024 09:22

I'm a GC Dad; I've been desperately trying to navigate this nonsense with my 'gender' non-conforming kid for the last 3 years and keep them safe from harm.

You're deluded if you think this was anything other than a massive, crass, unforced error by Sunak. I despair. The only hope is that Labour decide the risks from weaponising this (thereby drawing attention to their own inconsistency, internal divisions and foolishness) are too high to press the issue. But it also means Sunak will have to avoid the topic from now on. The man is an idiot.

No chance. This will come up and Esther Grey won’t be in the building then what will Starmer do?

His own party say he’s afraid of his own shadow already

IClaudine · 08/02/2024 09:27

oldwomanwhoruns · 08/02/2024 09:24

Until Starmer admits that women are Adult Human Females, he will face this every time he stands up in the Commons.

It's on Starmer to get back to the real world. Not on Sunak to Be Kind.

I don't think this will happen. Sunak only cares about clinging to votes. The pasting he has had over this means he will probably be very wary of sparking things off again in PMQs. He'll have to find a different, pathetic taunt.

PaperWalkAndTalk · 08/02/2024 09:28

A lot of this argument strikes me as the same used that uses against JKR, which is if we can prevent someone powerful like Sunak or JKR from stating biological fact then normal people will have to fall into line too.

I'm not interested in defending Sunak for his incompetent timing, but I am defending the right for him to say it, because if he is not allowed to say then the public definitely isn't.

lieselotte · 08/02/2024 09:29

I am not exactly a Tory apologist, but the reference to knowing how to define a woman was in the context of a long list of alleged u-turns by Starmer.

It had nothing to do with scoring points when Esther Ghey was in the building.

SinnerBoy · 08/02/2024 09:31

Has anyone asked Esther Ghey if she was upset, or offended by Sunak's quip? Sorry, I'm on a coffee break, I have not had an opportunity to look.

HymnToGrace · 08/02/2024 09:32

lieselotte · 08/02/2024 09:29

I am not exactly a Tory apologist, but the reference to knowing how to define a woman was in the context of a long list of alleged u-turns by Starmer.

It had nothing to do with scoring points when Esther Ghey was in the building.

But she was in the building. So why not have a little humanity and decorum? Just wait a week so that the awful murder can't be linked to the justifiable question. It's just terrible political judgment from him.

EasternStandard · 08/02/2024 09:34

How many people are ‘in the building’ during PMQs

Do they need to submit a list of what might upset them

Marchintospring · 08/02/2024 09:35

The problem is Brianna was trans and that was one of the reasons Brianna was murdered. Not because she was woman.
There would have been no issue pointing this out.

.

Lemonlemonlemonapple · 08/02/2024 09:39

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Your comment which I objected to:

“There was one person who as part of already deciding to kill someone anyway came out with some transphobic comments in a conversation with his fellow killer.”

My comments:

“you said it was just transphobia and they were already going to kill her”

“the argument you made is literally one of the arguments which Eddie Ratcliffe’s defence made in court (that he was transphobic, but it wasn’t the real motivation and he was just doing what Scarlet said. The court explicitly rejected the argument.”

The judge at sentencing explaining that she rejects the argument that he just came out with some transphobic comments, and that Brianna was going to be killed anyway:

”[to eddie]You did not know Brianna. You knew only what Scarlett told you. She said Brianna was transgender and sent you pictures of her. Your messages about Brianna were transphobic. You consistently referred to her in a way that was dehumanising, calling her “it”. You also described her as a “femboy thing”. When discussing killing Brianna, you agreed with Scarlett that she would be the easiest victim and said “and I want to see if it will scream like a man or a girl.” After the failed attempt on 28 January and in answer to Scarlett expressing her desire to see Brianna suffering, you said “Really all I wanted is to see what size dick it had”.

”Your explanation is that you were just copying language used by friends, including Scarlett, to fit in. Throughout the messaging, Scarlett almost always referred to Brianna as a girl and used the pronouns she and her, so you were not following Scarlett’s lead. It may be that you picked up some of this language and the hostile views at school. But after considering all the evidence I have about you, I am satisfied that you are quite capable of holding your own views.”

“I find also that you, Eddie, were motivated in part by hostility towards Brianna because she was transgender. You dehumanised Brianna by constantly referring to her as “it”. Your messages about wanting to see if “it will scream like a man or a girl” and “Really all I wanted is to see what size dick it had”, along with checking the night before the killing that Brianna was coming, show your own interests in killing Brianna, linked to your hostility towards her as a transgender person. Just as you knew of Scarlett’s motives, she knew of yours, although I cannot go as far as to say she used your transphobic attitudes to get you involved. I therefore find that you both took part in a
brutal and planned murder which was sadistic in nature and where a secondary motive was hostility towards Brianna because of her transgender identity.”

PaperWalkAndTalk · 08/02/2024 09:40

SinnerBoy · 08/02/2024 09:31

Has anyone asked Esther Ghey if she was upset, or offended by Sunak's quip? Sorry, I'm on a coffee break, I have not had an opportunity to look.

As far as I'm aware they haven't, at the very least Starmer made the comments before he even met her. Sky News and ITV News are making a lot of comments from the father (even though his FB tells a different story).

It's another case of being offended on the behalf of someone else.

I've noticed that Esther Ghey has avoided the trans issue and focused on much wider ranging issues such as social media use and mindfulness. It really is another case of activists using someone's death to further their own agenda (which may have been contrary to what the actual person believed in).

WishIMite · 08/02/2024 09:41

HymnToGrace · 08/02/2024 09:22

I'm a GC Dad; I've been desperately trying to navigate this nonsense with my 'gender' non-conforming kid for the last 3 years and keep them safe from harm.

You're deluded if you think this was anything other than a massive, crass, unforced error by Sunak. I despair. The only hope is that Labour decide the risks from weaponising this (thereby drawing attention to their own inconsistency, internal divisions and foolishness) are too high to press the issue. But it also means Sunak will have to avoid the topic from now on. The man is an idiot.

Same here: I’ve seen two dc through this and both changed their minds. So I thought I was pretty hardcore GC. But this discussion utterly lacks basic courtesy which really puts me off. Can’t believe I’m now some kind of moderate tbh.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/02/2024 09:41

I do blame every single "gender-critical" aka transphobic adult, yes. They are all culpable. Those teenagers simply acted out the transphobia that most adults are able to keep in check in real life.

That's ridiculous. Typical of trans rights activists to blame women standing up for their rights over a couple of disturbed teenagers who actively maintained a "kill list" of about five people.

IClaudine · 08/02/2024 09:42

EasternStandard · 08/02/2024 09:34

How many people are ‘in the building’ during PMQs

Do they need to submit a list of what might upset them

The PM is briefed about all sorts of things for PMQs, including who of any note might be in the House that day.
So Sunak either deliberately made his jibe knowing Esther Ghey would be in the house yesterday, or he fucked up. Either way, it shows he is a rubbish politician who is completely out of his depth as PM.

He is going to get slaughtered every day during the election campaign. Looking forward to it.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.