Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

March 8th Irish referendum on mothers in the home

171 replies

fromorbit · 03/02/2024 09:46

Updating sexist language or removing the concept of motherhood from the Constitution so women's and mother's rights can be more easily crushed ?

The case for:
https://theconversation.com/according-to-irelands-constitution-a-womans-duties-are-in-the-home-but-a-referendum-could-be-about-to-change-its-sexist-wording-222477

The case against:
https://thecountess.ie/a-personal-account-of-why-i-will-be-voting-no-in-the-upcoming-constitutional-referendum-on-8th-march-2024/

The Countess and other groups are arguing for a no vote. Big No march today in Dublin.

What do people think? One thing is certain Irish women should be encouraged to discuss and debate this using their hard won freedoms and not tolerate anyone telling them to keep quiet.

According to Ireland’s constitution, a woman’s duties are in the home – but a referendum could be about to change its sexist wording

A vote on International Women’s Day should make the constitution more gender-neutral – but there is still a catch.

https://theconversation.com/according-to-irelands-constitution-a-womans-duties-are-in-the-home-but-a-referendum-could-be-about-to-change-its-sexist-wording-222477

OP posts:
Thread gallery
20
fabricstash · 09/03/2024 22:42

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/03/2024 18:39

I've just watched the below video on the Countess website, looking for their article. Incredibly poignant and moving.

This video is so moving!

HellersK · 09/03/2024 22:45

Happy with the result. Interested to see what happens with government now, if anything.

DublinFemale · 09/03/2024 23:39

HellersK · 09/03/2024 22:45

Happy with the result. Interested to see what happens with government now, if anything.

Nothing will happen, business as usual.

They will not take any responsibility or look internally and ask the question. "How did we get it so wrong?"

YetAnotherSpartacus · 09/03/2024 23:54

Hard to see how this is a feminist outcome really. My place is not in the fucking home being some man's skivvy although I was raised by a mother who thought it was. Thank fuck I threw off those shackles in the second wave and thank fuck I don't live in the ROI.

LorlieS · 09/03/2024 23:59

Who actually thinks in 2024 that woman's place is in the home?!!!

YetAnotherSpartacus · 10/03/2024 00:14

Apparently, the choice we have is between taking the clause out which is effectively the erasure of the concept of 'women' according to some (even though other countries get by just fine without enshrining an outdated and misogynistic interpretation of women in their constitutions) and maintaining the aforesaid misogynistic understanding of sex roles (likely influenced by the RCC), which in the eyes of some has become the appropriate feminist response because it does not allegedly erase women (and because for some modern feminists is all vive la difference and higamous hogamous and women's special place being valorised and all that).

This is what it has come to. Women choosing misogynistic approach (a) over potentially misogynistic approach (b) (although personally, I don't see how the change would have erased women at all).

The duties of men and fathers to provide for the children they create are not mentioned in the Constitution (of course).

Whatnonsenseisthisnow · 10/03/2024 00:31

@YetAnotherSpartacus
You do realise that voting yes for the changes was also voting against support for the disabled and for carers?

You see the present wording as sexist and many agree (though many also do not).

But replacing sexist language with ableist language isn't a great choice now is it?

The proposed wording was appalling, that's why a lot of people said no.

I have a feeling you don't know as much about the proposed changes as you think you do.

DublinFemale · 10/03/2024 01:01

YetAnotherSpartacus · 09/03/2024 23:54

Hard to see how this is a feminist outcome really. My place is not in the fucking home being some man's skivvy although I was raised by a mother who thought it was. Thank fuck I threw off those shackles in the second wave and thank fuck I don't live in the ROI.

This was not for to keep women in the home it was to ensure people with disabilities would be able to live their lives as equals.

Plenty of people have disabilities and work, raise children.

This referendum was quite demeaning and a lot of disabled people themselves campaigned against the change. They do not to be cared for by the able bodied they have capable of caring for themselves. They deserve their independence as much any able bodied person.

As for the women in the house, there is a major court case due next month, this clause is part of the challenge. Challenge is very weakened m.

I personally like the word mother in the constitution, it is only in there once. Not to mention the reality is women/mothers do in majority of cases the brunt of the care. It is the only time we are recognised. But that is my personal view on it.

NitroNine · 10/03/2024 02:05

Is Dún Laoghaire now officially The Wokest Part Of Ireland? 😶 Will there be a massive influx of those who are Special Of Gender?

One of the big Irish language accounts on TwiX is very TWAW Pronouns In Bio but was still unsubtly pushing tá níl the other day: possibly due to the carers’ vote 🤔

(Results are trending away on TwiX which saved me the bother of actually searching for specifics/wider world commentary for myself 😉)

WarriorN · 10/03/2024 06:46

As an aside, the bbc have used an image from a father Ted festival to report on this.

You couldn't make it up....

x.com/leng_cath/status/1766592867315634368?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

WarriorN · 10/03/2024 06:48

Further down:

https://x.com/leng_cath/status/1766608656009662623?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

I thought it was weird that people are v happy and there's a sign about Mrs Doyle. Easter Confused

Mermoose · 10/03/2024 07:30

This comment on Sky from their Irish correspondent has it fairly right. This was not about saying a woman's place is in the home, not is it about defining or redefining the word woman in Irish law.

"This will be held up for many years as an example of how not to run a referendum campaign. Pay no attention to any international clickbait headlines declaring that on International Women's Day, the Irish voted to keep women at home.

This wasn't about the "sexist" language. It was about the government's shambolic approach to the vote.

A reluctance to commit resources. Rejecting recommended replacement language in favour of vague aspirations that convinced no one. Poor messaging. And a perceived arrogance and complacency toward the electorate.

Replacing marriage as the family foundation with "durable relationships", but not defining what on earth a durable relationship was? Ah sure, the courts will sort that one out, the people were told.

Ditching the sexist language, and replacing it with a vague commitment to "strive" to support family carers (who are mostly women)? What does that mean? How do you define "strive" in a legal sense? Do or do not, there is no try, according to Yoda, who definitely would have voted 'no'.

The answers simply didn't come, and history shows the Irish voters are more than happy to shoot down referendums when they don't feel the tangible results to a Yes vote have been explained. Brexit would never have passed with Irish voters. They don't do vague. Better the devil you know. Status quo prevails."

WarriorN · 10/03/2024 08:34

Images for prosperity

March 8th Irish referendum on mothers in the home
March 8th Irish referendum on mothers in the home
March 8th Irish referendum on mothers in the home
Redpencil99 · 10/03/2024 08:40

In the Treaty of Lisbon the Irish government made them vote again on the same question...sorry if you didn't know that

Anyway, tucked away on the NI page of the BBC:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68484651

Senator Michael McDowell (left) with No campaigners celebrate at Dublin Castle as the result is announced in the first of the twin referenda to change the Constitution on family and care. Ireland has voted to reject the Government's proposal to change...

Irish referendums: Voters reject changes to family and care definition

Voters in the Republic of Ireland reject proposals to alter the wording on family and care.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68484651

Redpencil99 · 10/03/2024 08:42

Mermoose · 10/03/2024 07:30

This comment on Sky from their Irish correspondent has it fairly right. This was not about saying a woman's place is in the home, not is it about defining or redefining the word woman in Irish law.

"This will be held up for many years as an example of how not to run a referendum campaign. Pay no attention to any international clickbait headlines declaring that on International Women's Day, the Irish voted to keep women at home.

This wasn't about the "sexist" language. It was about the government's shambolic approach to the vote.

A reluctance to commit resources. Rejecting recommended replacement language in favour of vague aspirations that convinced no one. Poor messaging. And a perceived arrogance and complacency toward the electorate.

Replacing marriage as the family foundation with "durable relationships", but not defining what on earth a durable relationship was? Ah sure, the courts will sort that one out, the people were told.

Ditching the sexist language, and replacing it with a vague commitment to "strive" to support family carers (who are mostly women)? What does that mean? How do you define "strive" in a legal sense? Do or do not, there is no try, according to Yoda, who definitely would have voted 'no'.

The answers simply didn't come, and history shows the Irish voters are more than happy to shoot down referendums when they don't feel the tangible results to a Yes vote have been explained. Brexit would never have passed with Irish voters. They don't do vague. Better the devil you know. Status quo prevails."

I wouldn't be too sure that Brexit (Eirexit?) would have been shot down. But who's to know, now

Redpencil99 · 10/03/2024 08:45

DeanElderberry · 09/03/2024 19:56

What on earth are you on about? This thread is about a referendum on the constitution of Ireland, and there was no 'definition of a woman' involved.

Sorry if you don't know what happened in the Treaty of Lisbon referendum, it was run again and "no" miraculously became "yes". Wouldn't hold your breath that this is the last time we have heard of this.

Redpencil99 · 10/03/2024 08:46

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68484651

This also discussed disability discrimination - can anyone explain how the Care amendment was potentially ableist? It's a side I've not heard before.

Senator Michael McDowell (left) with No campaigners celebrate at Dublin Castle as the result is announced in the first of the twin referenda to change the Constitution on family and care. Ireland has voted to reject the Government's proposal to change...

Irish referendums: Voters reject changes to family and care definition

Voters in the Republic of Ireland reject proposals to alter the wording on family and care.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68484651

elgreco · 10/03/2024 08:51

Thwording of the Lisbon treaty was changed due to its rejection first time. It was not an exact rerun.

Redpencil99 · 10/03/2024 08:52

YetAnotherSpartacus · 09/03/2024 23:54

Hard to see how this is a feminist outcome really. My place is not in the fucking home being some man's skivvy although I was raised by a mother who thought it was. Thank fuck I threw off those shackles in the second wave and thank fuck I don't live in the ROI.

To me it means that, BECAUSE this is your role one way or another (women, let's face it, even if you don't have children you may end up as the carer for parents, in-laws etc much more.disproportinayely from your husband) you are recognised for this and further to this, by doing these roles you are honoured by the Irish state for it.

Damn better than having female caring role and it being ignored by the state or worse expected of you because of your sex.

Mermoose · 10/03/2024 08:53

Redpencil99 · 10/03/2024 08:45

Sorry if you don't know what happened in the Treaty of Lisbon referendum, it was run again and "no" miraculously became "yes". Wouldn't hold your breath that this is the last time we have heard of this.

I believe that reply was in response to the idea that the referendum was on the definition of "woman", not in response to the Treaty of Lisbon comparison.
Regarding Brexit, Ireland is dependent economically on the EU market having an unsustainably small home market, and Brexit hurt many small businesses here and overall I think we're realistic that on balance we're better off within.

Redpencil99 · 10/03/2024 08:55

elgreco · 10/03/2024 08:51

Thwording of the Lisbon treaty was changed due to its rejection first time. It was not an exact rerun.

So what's stopping the wording being changed here if there is a next time? It's already been admitted that the Yes/Yes vote is believed to have failed because of."poor communication". (Probably females' brains could handle multi part thinking...). Wording needs to be changed to get the answer we want...so this would be then just like the process of the Lisbon Treaty

Redpencil99 · 10/03/2024 08:56

Mermoose · 10/03/2024 08:53

I believe that reply was in response to the idea that the referendum was on the definition of "woman", not in response to the Treaty of Lisbon comparison.
Regarding Brexit, Ireland is dependent economically on the EU market having an unsustainably small home market, and Brexit hurt many small businesses here and overall I think we're realistic that on balance we're better off within.

This is a fair point

borntobequiet · 10/03/2024 08:58

WarriorN · 10/03/2024 06:46

As an aside, the bbc have used an image from a father Ted festival to report on this.

You couldn't make it up....

x.com/leng_cath/status/1766592867315634368?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

That’s disgraceful. I’ve complained

https://www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints/make-a-complaint/#/Complaint

Make A Complaint | Contact the BBC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints/make-a-complaint/#/Complaint

Redpencil99 · 10/03/2024 08:58

elgreco · 10/03/2024 08:51

Thwording of the Lisbon treaty was changed due to its rejection first time. It was not an exact rerun.

Oh come on, pretty much!

Swipe left for the next trending thread