March 8th Irish referendum on mothers in the home

[fromorbit]

Updating sexist language or removing the concept of motherhood from the Constitution so women's and mother's rights can be more easily crushed ?

The case for:
https://theconversation.com/according-to-irelands-constitution-a-womans-duties-are-in-the-home-but-a-referendum-could-be-about-to-change-its-sexist-wording-222477

The case against:
https://thecountess.ie/a-personal-account-of-why-i-will-be-voting-no-in-the-upcoming-constitutional-referendum-on-8th-march-2024/

The Countess and other groups are arguing for a no vote. Big No march today in Dublin.

What do people think? One thing is certain Irish women should be encouraged to discuss and debate this using their hard won freedoms and not tolerate anyone telling them to keep quiet.

Exactly, for all their talk about 'diversity' it seems that diversity of opinion isn't really valued.

So centuries of oppressing mothers under a strict patriarchal religious regime, shortly followed by erasure of the very language used to describe them? Nope, I can't see a problem with it at all. Nothing to see here!

"We live in a democracy and people are given that choice of who they want to represent them or what changes are made to the Constitution."

"We have clearly made a mistake"

Article on RTÉ website.

Mammies are mothers in Ireland!

https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0309/1436887-referendum-family-care/

Thankfully it looks like the no on both will win as do not believe anything this government tries to push on us as they always have or add in secret clauses for their own benefit. Cannot say anything in Ireland now or called far right. Country goes to crap while politicans milk it to the max.

Also taking the wording woman out it is like they want to eradicate what a woman is.

They've already done that with the GRA in 2015...

This 100%

Back in 2016 I really thought that Trump's election would make the Democrats take stock and make changes to win their core voters back.

I was so naive.

Hugely relieved to see a resounding NO vote!

Varadkar needs to resign after this. Mihole Martin too.

What a massive waste of money.

I'm not Irish but I've been following the threads about this referendum on Mumsnet. I'm happy and relieved for you Irishwomen that the vote was No/No. Heartening that the rejection was so decisive.

I've just watched the below video on the Countess website, looking for their article. Incredibly poignant and moving.

Also not Irish but just wanted to congrats you all on your win.

When are politicians going to stop telling voters what they should want rather than actually listen to what voters really think?

Astonishing that they are all lashing out and calling voters stupid. Can they not think ahead to when they will be wanting your votes at some point in the future?

It is completely untrue that 'they are all lashing out and calling voters stupid'.

We are a democracy, we fought long and hard to become one, and we the people rejected the government's proposed amendments in a referendum. The politicians, from Varadkar down, have all said they respect the decision of the electorate.
There's lots of criticism of the amendments, of the campaigning, and even of holding a referendum at all, but to claim 'they are all lashing out and calling voters stupid' is wrong and TBH a bit insulting towards how we do things in this imperfect but democratic state.

https://reactionaryfeminist.substack.com/p/ireland-says-no-to-abolishing-mothers?r=clsg2&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

Congrats to the Irish ! Tough fight against the state and its most powerful institutions and yet you pulled it off.

Inspirational!

I can see plenty of complaint on Twitter about voters being called stupid, 🤷🏻‍♀️

Well, unless they do a "Treaty of Lisbon" to this referendum, the definition of a woman is enshrined in law in Éire still.

They won't...Sinn Fein will get in of they do, look how long it took to form a government last time, Fine Fail and Fine Gael in coalition? Wow!

What on earth are you on about? This thread is about a referendum on the constitution of Ireland, and there was no 'definition of a woman' involved.

I was watching/listening to all coverage of the count this morning. As it became clear that a NO was likely, there were some early attempts by, in particular Ivana Bacik of Labour as well as some minor Greens to spin the defeat as a result of "poor communication" by the government, that govt “didn't do enough” to explain the proposed amendments to the electorate, the wording was imprecise etc. In other words, the dim and dopey electorate needed it spelled out to them in much simpler terms. As the count wore on and it became apparent that the result was likely to be not merely a NO but a landslide NO, I think they realised that they wouldn't get away with tarring the vast majority of the electorate as dim and so they changed tack. Cue some pretty pathetic attempts by the "opposition" to distance themselves from their own campaigning for the yes/government side. Bacik, Sherlock, McDonald and O'Broin all parroting the similar line that they "reluctantly" or "grudgingly" supported the government despite their discomfort with the wording. Newsflash! Ivana, Mary Lou et al, the job of opposition is to oppose in situations where you don’t agree with what a government is proposing, not go along with it "grudgingly". It was only at this point that we saw some govt party leaders surface to say they accepted the decision of the electorate, but at this stage what else could they say in the face of a landslide? I have no doubt that if the result had been closer, we would now be seeing the usual attempts to label NO voters as dim, uneducated, far right etc etc.

I'm not a fan of Sinn Féin but if they do have a referendum on these two articles it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, once they got it right. Article 41.2 doesn't say that a woman's place is in the home but it's understandable why so many read it that way. I'd support a rewriting that recognised in more careful wording that care is overwhelmingly, if not exclusively, carried out by women, and strengthened the state's obligations to mothers and other carers. There would have to be concrete practical benefit to justify the expense of another referendum though.

Likewise if family is expanded in the constitution (as well as in law, where it's already the case) to include non-married parents and long-term cohabitees, I'd welcome that.

The Yes campaign had their hands over their ears. But like Marie said, Varadkar, Ryan and others have today said they respect and accept the result.

I also find it baffling that you express such confidence in Ireland’s “imperfect” democracy because I think this referendum campaign has highlighted a dangerous democratic deficit developing in Irish politics. In particular, we need a serious debate in Ireland about the role of government funded NGO’s in future referenda and electoral campaigns, especially in the context of the judgement in the McKenna case (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendum_Commission) and in the context of Minister O’Gorman’s implied threat to the funding of these NGO’s if they didn’t support the government’s position. This is seriously concerning stuff and I hope it’s taken up by some of those who led the NO campaigns.

"the dim and dopey electorate needed it spelled out to them in much simpler terms." - I haven't heard any politician saying anything like that about voters.

The go-to arse covering by all the opposition parties which, bar one tiny one, backed Yes/Yes, is 'The dim and dopey government needed to spell their amendments out in much simpler terms'.

I think democracy won the day, by 67.7% and 73.9%☺

Of course none of them specifically used the words "dim and dopey" and nowhere have I said that anyone used those actual words. They aren't that stupid. If you read my post you'll see that I am saying that I saw with my own eyes this morning several politicians HINT at the NO vote being as a result of the people not understanding what they were being asked to vote on, the only IMPLICATION I can draw from that is that they think people are stupid. I'm not the only person to see this. They swiftly changed tack once they realised a landslide was afoot.

Democracy did indeed win the day, I agree, but against the odds. There were some serious abuses of power by ministers including misrepresenting what is actually stated in the constitution as it stands currently, refusing to correct that misinformation when challenged, the Referendum Commission having no power to force a minister to correct misinformation, abuse of taxpayers money contrary to the judgement in the McKenna case, lying about advice given to the government by the Attorney General. The bigger picture here is that all of these things represent a threat to the democracy you keep mentioning, and a debate needs to be had and safeguards put in place to prevent this ever happening again before we move on from this debacle.