Janice Turner interview with Debbie Hayton in the Times

[CaptainWarbeck]

Share token link here: Debbie Hayton: the trans woman taking on the trans activists

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/df87fe47-3dd3-4f35-ac48-81f54aeb418f?shareToken=a53b2f201cdd4c204b9009b204cb1ef3

Janice neatly runs through a history of trans issues with Debbie including a discussion of AGP. An excellent read I thought and will get a wide audience as a Saturday Times Magazine article.

I think everyone calls hayton 'she' in the press,so that no child has the nod to call him 'sir' at school.

That literally never occurred to me as a potential reason🤯

I didn't get into this battle to monitor how grown up friends address or refer to each each other. However I think there's a difference between a private conversation - none of my business as far as I'm concerned - and a professional exchange. Janice Turner was interviewing Debbie Hayton in her capacity as a journalist not chatting privately at the coffee shop.

Even so, if JT had declared in her article 'I have known Debbie Hayton a long time and we've become friends' then I personally (and I realise some people will disagree) wouldn't have had a complaint. It's mixing up the two and then getting arsey when challenged that I object to.

So journalists potentially make his willy tingle, in order that his pupils have to do the same?

These women don't understand that it's not manners, it's not etiquette, it's not compassion, it's not being adult, it's not kindness, it's not philosophical,

IT'S A FUCKING FETISH!

I'm sorry for shouting, but they're looking at something, which he has expressly told them is a sexual fetish, and they're seeing something else.

And everyone else who's watching the fetish thrive, is getting told off!!

I'm sorry that Andrew Doyle has bogged off, I really like him.

Plus I thought even if he was highly offended, he would just deal with it.

I saw some screenshots and he (AD) was getting some vile homophobic abuse. No idea who from though, no accounts that I recognised.

Oh, well that's not right. And that wouldn't have been from GC women, obviously.

An actual struggle session? That sounds more akin to liberal feminism.

The drama doesn't sound like anyone I know. From what others here have said, none of us recognises this.

Billy Bragg has a screenshot that asserts it was GC feminists.

https://x.com/billybragg/status/1754958332631154920?s=20

I went looking again and noticed that too, there were indeed some horrible homophobic tweets from users that I didn’t recognise either. The homophobic tweets I saw didn’t even attempt to address the issue at hand and just seemed to be people taking the opportunity to send abuse to a gay man.

From what I could see, it does seem the majority of the people contacting him were in disagreement with the pronouns issue and a few others I saw were additionally discussing surrogacy and drag with him.

From what I could see, I think he was also of the opinion that pronoun use is a matter of politeness and he believes that trying to get him use sex-based pronouns is compelled speech.

Sorry, couldn't edit my post to include the BB screenshot from Andrew Doyle.

https://x.com/billybragg/status/1754958332631154920?s=20

Wow, I managed to miss that long tweet from him. I really don’t know what to think in response to his stating some feminists might hate male sexuality. Bit stumped by that 🤔

I don't recognise the rhetoric at all. I have to wonder about

• struggle session
• GC feminists
• the reported reference to "the gays"

Who on earth passed on that report and how reliable is the source? I'd be surprised at Doyle being deceived but I've no idea how difficult that is for people to validate.

There’s an element of ‘bros before hos’ to that.

Of course feminists critique male sexuality and the hoards of women who have experienced male sexual violence, which pushed them to become feminists, hate male sexuality, and those that don’t hate it sometimes want a damn break from it - the male gaze, pornified culture, casual sexual bullying of women and so on.

So many men just don’t get it do they? They really want women to celebrate their dicks and their associated impulses along with them.

I came across a tweet from Graham Linehan claiming this whole kerfuffle was the fault of a Twitter account called Grace O’Malley. I feel it’s only fair to add that Glinner has beef with her (he dislikes her intensely and she’s not keen on him either) but no-one else I can read on Twitter has confirmed his supposition on the matter, in fact they’re saying he’s incorrect. So I’m really not sure who to believe - it’s a good old-fashioned Twitter clusterfuck.

Also, it is far more annoying to me when men give women’s words to their brothers than when self-defeating women give them. It’s a brotherly pat on the back. Bros before hos dude yeah? The male entitlement and misogyny of it.

Hmm. Rapey sexuality is not the same thing as male sexuality.

It's an interesting question though. There are lots of men with foot fetishism out there perving on women in heels without their consent, for example.

a good old-fashioned Twitter clusterfuck.

Yep. A Twixterfuck.

well now I've seen reactions to the tweets and descriptions of them, but I haven't seen any of the tweets.

Still highly doubt it was anyone who I would recognise.

Twixterfuckle.

I listen to The Queens Speech podcast (Clive Simpson & Dennis Kavanagh) and I really enjoy it. But from time to time both men interpret feminist behaviour with regards to gay male sexuality as homophobic - a recent episode briefly discussed women’s reactions to the man who created the Pride Pillar in London Bridge Station. Both Simpson & Kavanagh felt women expressing concern about this bloke’s past tweets about teenage 'boys' he thought were sexy (when he was in his 20s) were homophobic and didn’t take gay male culture into account. I seem to remember Simpson being angry with feminist objections to drag queens too.

There’s a difference in attitudes between women and men, it would be silly to think otherwise, when it comes to male sexuality but I don’t think any of the GC feminists I’m aware of hate gay men or their sexuality.

Accusing feminists of homophobia is going to get a whole lot worse when surrogacy becomes more of an issue.

We have to remember, there are lots of people who are on the GC side, but with different priorities and motivations.

If AD and BB want to get into a strop with all women because they percieve some women have offended them, then we need to let them get on with it. What do they want us to say?

Both Simpson & Kavanagh felt women expressing concern about this bloke’s past tweets about teenage 'boys' he thought were sexy (when he was in his 20s) were homophobic and didn’t take gay male culture into account.

Yeah, no. Dodgy behaviour and inappropriacy - I won't add any more labels - is NOT a part of the culture of homosexuality thanks. Ffs we spent decades trying to teach the general public we were as trustworthy and normal as straight people, and that gay didn't mean dodgy. If straight adult men were making dodgy comments about young girls society doesn't go aww bless it's part of the straight male culture (or at least they bloody shouldn't do.)

This is the issue: inappropriate behaviour, boundary issues and using others, less powerful others based on your power over them, and without care for consent is NOT a natural part of someone's sexuality. The two need to be kept firmly apart. However inconvenient this may be for some.

To honest I think it's perfectly understandable if Andrew Doyle is in a strop after what he's been through this evening. I feel like I need a shower after reading some of those screenshots.

As for what we should say, well I think, 'so sorry that happened to you Andrew and hope you're ok' would do as a start.

Not a Twixter person (just as well as I'd constantly be tempted by Twix) but I trust that after some time away, AD feels it's appropriate to return.

I have to confess that I'd sooner sit on a narrow wooden seat and listen to the entire Ring Cycle than sit through a 4hr struggle session if that's an accurate description.