Janice Turner interview with Debbie Hayton in the Times

[CaptainWarbeck]

Share token link here: Debbie Hayton: the trans woman taking on the trans activists

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/df87fe47-3dd3-4f35-ac48-81f54aeb418f?shareToken=a53b2f201cdd4c204b9009b204cb1ef3

Janice neatly runs through a history of trans issues with Debbie including a discussion of AGP. An excellent read I thought and will get a wide audience as a Saturday Times Magazine article.

There are aspects of male sexuality which are very different from female sexuality. Many men struggle with it and resent it, because there aren’t many legitimate means to express it in polite society - like Hayton’s beachball.

Many men will feel a lot of empathy with one of their brothers talking about how trying to restrain their sexual urges and impulses feels like trying to hold a beach ball underwater, and very few women will empathise at all.

Most women are either foolishly oblivious to this aspect of male sexuality and wrongly assume innocent intent (a bit like JT obliviously playing into DH’s erotic fantasy life, using his erotic words while he is blatantly saying the quiet bit out loud- constant crossdressing and extreme surgery is one of the weird places the male sex drive can end up), or are hyper vigilant about it, because they have lived experience of the unpleasant end of it.

Having said that, there are a lot of men whose empathy with the beach ball analogy, leads them to think “I know what your game is sonny Jim” when they see a brother in a dress being surrounded by fawning women. Particularly straight men. Also, through having an intimate knowledge of women, they know the damage that a male sexuality can do to women when it isn’t properly managed and comes out warped and twisted. They know exactly why feminist women aren’t cheerleading erections. But, come to think about it, Mr Menno’s testimony about his experience of sexual violence means he can empathise a bit more with women too.

However, in my experience, gay men have tended to have more of a blind spot to the negative impact that male sexuality can have on women, than straight men and can be a bit more defensive, thinking women are just hating on men when we complain about behaviours that make us feel uncomfortable and threatened. Perhaps not fancying women makes it seem more like DH just innocently enjoys costumes and dressing up, or wants a holiday from the pressures of masculinity, because the idea of a man getting turned on by women’s words and accoutrements doesn’t make sense if you don’t get turned on by women yourself.

And although there are many aspects to male sexuality @Datun, I don’t think you can completely extract ‘rapeyness’ from it as though the non-consensual behaviour comes from somewhere else completely, as though the men who engage in it are monsters rather than ordinary men.

I don't disagree with your post, but I'm not sure what the last paragraph means?

I know men and women view sex completely differently, and gay men differently, again. They're bound to, not having any attraction to women.

There's often going to be a mismatch of understanding, even when the two groups, or all three groups are generally agreed on the same goal. And sometimes, it will be little uneasy. Because I genuinely believe women have more insight into the way men think, than men do into the way women think.

My main point, though, is that I don't think the women who are fighting this, whether it's those who believe in pronouns, or those who don't, would resort to homophobic slurs.

i'm not on Twitter, and I was a bit shocked to hear that Andrew Doyle had deleted his account. I've seen him handle everything with massive doses of humour and a studied nonchalance.

but I'd be really shocked if it had anything to do with certainly the women on here, and probably gender critical feminists in general.

I think being shocked is the appropriate response for tonight.

The other reason why I don't think it's women on here, at least, is that we write quite long and involved posts about why we believe what we do. We back it up with, hopefully, rational arguments and evidence.

it's kind of the whole point of this board. That you have enough time and space to put your point across properly.

Highly unlikely that you're going to turn around and basically say fuck off you <insert slur here> when you've got reams and reams of perfectly wonderful argument to relay instead.

To a journalist.

With his own slot on the telly.

That’s an excellent point, Frood - women have managed to move culture to the point where, publicly at least, a lot of men know not to make inappropriate comments about teenage girls. It shouldn’t be tolerated when it comes to discussing teenage boys either.

Sorry, nrtt but (staying far too late) I noticed this in the Times

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/im-a-trans-womans-wife-my-life-with-debbie-hayton-wfqp5b72x

https://archive.ph/k9VqS

It's quite a slight piece but, as well as being lovely, she seems empathetic and intelligent.

Some more info relevant to the discussion on the thread: Stella O’Malley has tweeted a list of what looks to be people she believes have been bullied by the people Janice Turner has recently termed GC Ultras.

'Jane Claire Jones, Graham Linehan, Fionne Orlander, Debbie Hayton, Miranda Yardley, Kristina Harrison, Buck Angel, Claire Graham, James Esses, Sarah Phillimore, Helen Pluckrose, Benjamin Boyce, Mike Bailey, James Cantor, Ken Zucker, Ray Blanchard, Billboard Chris, Genspect, LGB Alliance, Jenny Watson, Kathleen Stock, Julie Bindel, Women's Place UK, Judith Green, Labour Women's Declaration, Fair Play for Women, Aaron Tyrrell, Aaron Kimberly, GD Alliance, Corinna Cohn...'

https://x.com/stellaomalley3/status/1754984736181629041

I don't think that's a surprise, nearly all the names on that list are effectively "professional" commentators and have an implied contract that modifies how they speak.

Your average non academic/clinician/therapist/charity worker et al isn't bound by the same speech conventions and frequently lacks an understanding of the subtleties that imposes. Or doesn't actually care.

I'm a bit on no side or all sides and find most of that list quite willing to deploy uncompromising criticism too so I'm a bit meh about the need for yet another bloody label from the label professionals and their money making labeling schemes on all sides really.

@Datun you said “Hmm. Rapey sexuality is not the same thing as male sexuality.”
as a response to my post, and although I wasn’t saying that male sexuality and rapey sexuality are identical, I would still argue that rapeyness is a component of male sexuality as a whole, it isn’t an entirely separate entity from male sexuality.

Sexual coercion by men doesn’t happen because boys are taught to do it by patriarchal society, as radical feminists might have it (although the sex industries and now online incel/sissy-type communities definitely create conditions where it is more likely), sexual coercion by men happens because male drives are strong and they either learn to hold the beach ball under water, channel that energy into something worthwhile or they engage in sexual coercion to vent, such as coercing children to use their erotic words.

Regarding Andrew Doyle, I didn’t go on to twitter to read any homophobic tweets aimed at him, it seems from his post, that neither did he, he just had it described second-hand by a friend.

I read this post where he described it screenshotted by Billy Bragg (for whatever reason).

I am not going to attribute that kind of source any credence. Unless someone gives me an actual screenshot of a homophobic tweet, written by a known gender critical account, I will consider those labels of homophobia as valid as JKR being labelled transphobic.

I’m still annoyed that Andrew Doyle used DH’s erotic words, words belonging to women. Twitter nonsense reported second-hand and shared by a hard-of-thinking misogynist like BB doesn’t change it.

WTF was AD thinking?

I don't know what AD was thinking but he's a human being who's had a very unpleasant experience that clearly left him shaken and upset. I really think best response right now is to wish him well and give him some space with family/ friends.

In his post he said he hadn’t read the tweets?

Can someone link evidence where AD shares that he had an unpleasant experience that’s left him shaken and upset please?

All this hearsay and #bekind is getting annoying on this thread.

There were screenshots all over Twitter last night. I didn't copy them.

And when the reaction to treating someone as a human being is a #bekind sneer than I think it's maybe time for a break.

“Best response” indeed.

My perfectly legitimate response to AD using women’s words on a man who gets turned on by them, is to be annoyed.

From my perspective I have no other evidence than a flounce from someone who in my opinion, made the wrong call in the way he addressed a brother who insults/ parasitises women.

Disengaging now @Metamorphosising, the mic is all yours. Have a nice day.

No, on this thread, where Andrew Doyle is not present, basically telling me to be quiet about something he did which pisses me off, because ‘he is a human being’, is you using #bekind as a silencing tactic on this thread. There’s no reason to stop discussing it here is there?

Also if you could point me in the direction of some evidence, that would be appreciated, instead of implying I am unkind for not taking your word for it.

That was me, although I'm flattered to be mistaken for Datun.

I don't agree that rapeyness is a component of male sexuality. That's an arguable point. Male sexuality is not inherently rapey. Rape is not just about sex. Plenty of men are capable of a healthy sex life without it involving coercion or them having to sublimate violent urges.

I just read your longer post, Meta. I am reading the thread backwards just for maximum confusion.

Sorry for the confusion I caused @Datun / @ArabellaScott .

Regarding:

“Plenty of men are capable of a healthy sex life without it involving coercion or them having to sublimate violent urges.”

I feel this is the second time you have misconstrued/misrepresented what I’ve said @ArabellaScott .

I know the word ‘violence’ is used to mean even the ‘literal violence’ of hurty words by TRAs, but I used the word coercion, to describe behaviour including DH using teachers unions, and influencing school policies from other bodies, so that children are forced by the institution to use his erotic words. To me that could only be considered violence in the most abstract sense.

Also, you brought in the word ‘rapey’ originally, which doesn’t really have a clear meaning. Is it just a word to describe lecherousness, creepiness, etc, or is it as narrow as just ‘contemplating and/or perpetrating rape’? I would argue it is used more commonly for the former.

The coerciveness I am talking about is the fact that men tend to have sexual urges which would be socially unacceptable to express freely. They have three choices, suppress, sublimate or express it whether socially acceptable or not (coerce).

This doesn’t mean that ‘all men’ or ‘all males’ sexuality’ is expressed coercively, but the urges underpinning the expression whether consensually or coercively is a component part of male sexuality. Some men do have a lower drive, but I don’t think that makes them better people. I have also known women to be sexually coercive too, but I think the phenomenon of women battling to control their sex drive is pretty rare compared to men. ‘Strength of drive’ is a key feature of male sexuality compared to female sexuality.

Understanding, or not, the depth of the male sex drive might well be why Andrew Doyle doesn't mind using female pronouns, and why Janice Turner doesn't mind it either!

Right - so they either think of him like an innocent pre-pubescent boy playing dress up and defying gender norms, or they feel sorry for a man driven mad by his own randiness enough to wreck his body and the well-being of his entire family.

I'm not trying to misrepresent anyone, I just disagree. A strong sex drive does not equate to or result in need to rape. Rape is violent and its a choice. Suggesting men just can't control their urges or they'll accidentally rape someone is inaccurate.

Again I feel you misconstrued what I am saying. I didn’t suggest men might accidentally rape someone. Or that a strong sex drive equates to or result in a need to rape.

You are hearing something different in my words to what I am saying.