Let's have a poll!

[AdamRyan]

Thought it would be interesting to see the majority view on this board for what the consensus is on how trans people should be accommodated in society. I want to see what less vocal posters think

Options:

1. as they identify. Exactly the same as the sex they identify with. Access to womens spaces at all times, protected in law.
2. Third spaces: Treated as their acquired sex in most social and work contexts, use third spaces or treated as birth sex for times where biology is important for safety or dignity (i.e. hospitals, prisons, sports, changing rooms, providing or receiving intimate services like waxing, smear tests)
3. As their birth sex. People can choose to refer to them in their acquired gender but there is no expectation of this; all official documentation and interactions with services remains as birth sex.
4. Other - please explain

Let's see!

Women and girls must be allowed to exclude any males for any reason. So, it has to be option three.

it doesn’t get dumber than just loudly declaring trans women should be in male prisons or whatever. You do realise they’d get sexually assaulted constantly, even gay men who don’t identify as women aren’t safe in all male spaces. You are delusional. Trans people exist, whether or not you get it isn’t an excuse for blatant ignorance.
how “feminist” is it to decry patriarchy but fail to protect the very victims of patriarchy who are vulnerable to attacks by aggressive straight males? No ones forcing you to think of TW as female but this is just dumb?
cheers for encouraging this by the way mumsnet, extremely normal for allowing the level of hate that ends in a majority calling for trans women to be in extremely unsafe situation, because lol!! male!
like…

That's an issue for men's prisons to solve. Mitigating male-on-male violence is not a responsibility to be imposed upon incarcerated women.

@Begaydocrime94

I don't understand how the risk to TW in prison can't be mitigated by having space just for TW. Why is it a choice between TW are treated as women in all circumstances and TW must be put in a position so that they are locked up with abusive men?

But also, sadly a majority of those males claiming to be TW in prison have committed sex crimes, so this is an issue of female safety.

...the very victims of patriarchy who are vulnerable to attacks by aggressive straight males?

🤔

love the op and others being suprised theres unpleasant people on here like any of the brutally honest people here are here for the honesty.

but yeah polls a bit too vague, each option should be broken up into its own poll

@OP

I think this is an interesting poll. I incline towards 2, but I worry that it is unworkable to have sufficient case by case examples of what is reasonable so the category would end up being too restrictive - I do think it should be possible to have female only dating nights, for example.

I think that point 2 might be too restrictive because it would still imply punishment for those who might not particularly want a TW in their menopause support group etc, but I would generally do my best to use someone's pronouns and name and support a transition socially in the workplace etc (though I wouldn't support legal compulsion or punishment for those who might slip up etc).

I can hear the cries of male outrage already! Like music to my ears.

Birth sex. If you said transsexuals ie highly dysphoric men who take serious steps to transition, have the surgery, and mostly aren't a bother to the rest of society, then I may favour the compromise in option 2.

Yeh like Primark. I'm sure lots of men are similary Peed off especially those from some religions with equally strict segregation of both genders.

Again. That is bad. It is not women's problem to solve.
Those men can #BeKind

just gonna fix this for you-

“It doesn’t get dumber than just loudly declaring trans women should be in female prisons or whatever. You do realise women get sexually assaulted constantly, this is why we have female spaces. You are delusional. Trans people exist, whether or not you get it isn’t an excuse for blatant ignorance.”

In decrying the patriarchy, women’s focus is on protecting women not all victims of patriarchy. We’re not anti patriarchists or misandrists , we’re feminists.

Third spaces and services and categories; but accompanied by a pushing back against the ideology and the false beliefs being imparted to children.

Putting a stop to enforced pronoun use.

Nobody should be able to change their birth certificate.

even gay men who don’t identify as women aren’t safe in all male spaces.

@Begaydocrime94 are you arguing for gay men to be allowed into women’s prison? Because that seems like the logical extension of your argument. If not, why not? Why do you think some males who are at risk in all male spaces should be granted access to all-female spaces, but not others?

Do you have a thought on why all male spaces are less safe than all female spaces?

No-one can acquire a sex. They can acquire a gender.

I have always been, and remain, committed to equal treatment of the sexes when it comes to pay, voting rights, access to jobs and education etc etc. I'm also committed to single-sex spaces to protect the safety and dignity of women.

So choice three. I don't really care in Barbara at work with the short skirt and long hair has a Y chromosome, or if Bruce with the beard and tattoos doesn't, (it will be obvious), but what matters is their ability to do the job and interact in a civil fashion with colleagues and clients), but Barbara and Bruce should both use the facilities provided for the sex they are. If that's different from the gender they have adopted, tough. And it is critically important that if either of them end up in hospital, that the hospital knows the sex of the body they are treating.

Well having been evenly split all of yesterday overnight more votes have come in and now option 3 is well ahead (51% vs 42%) I wonder if this is some non British votes and we are seeing some cultural differences? US or Oz maybe....

You do realise they’d get sexually assaulted constantly, even gay men who don’t identify as women aren’t safe in all male spaces.

Vulnerable male people absolutely should be protected in male prisons. It isn't some impossible tasks - lots of countries manage to run decent civilised prison systems. America (for example) is an absolute mess but I think that's because broadly speaking no-one in power gives a shit. Its strange that so many people ONLY give a shit about this one very specific subset of men. Its almost as if they have another agenda.
And it seems there are enough trans women in prisons now that they could have their own separate wing or corridor in the prison so they could be kept separate from the other males without going into solitary confinement.

Isla Bryson incidentally has apparently been hassling other men now they have been transferred. I doubt that the delicate Tiffany Scott is at much risk from being bullied either.

I think that poster makes a good point in that one of the points of feminism (in lots of people's mind) is to overturn the patriarchy. This means dealing with male violence, sexual oppression etc. If you follow that branch of feminism, leaving vulnerable people exposed to male violence is an unfeminist act.

I don't agree the answer is for vulnerable men to share women's spaces but I think that makes the case for third spaces stronger.

I also think that similar to how it's impossible for men to have an insight of what the world is like for women, women can probably not understand the experiences of gay men and what leads them to have a particular worry about TW in male prisons.

As soon as one male is 'let in' to a female single sex space, that space is no longer single sex.

They aren't there to protect men from men, they are there to help protect women from men.

Why should all women now have to also take on the job of protecting men from themselves?

it doesn’t get dumber than just loudly declaring trans women should be in male prisons or whatever. You do realise they’d get sexually assaulted constantly, even gay men who don’t identify as women aren’t safe in all male spaces. You are delusional. Trans people exist, whether or not you get it isn’t an excuse for blatant ignorance.

There are a lot of men who are more vulnerable to assault and attack in men’s prisons. As you’ve already pointed out some gay men and some of the men who say they are women but also young men, men who have been convicted of paedophillia or murder of children or rape, those who were in law enforcement are all at increased risk.

Should we move all of these men to the female estate? Or just those men who declare a womanly identity?

If the argument is about the position of vulnerable people in male prisons then the same argument would apply to third spaces. Why would tw have access to a third space, but not gay men. Or indeed the very many young men in prison with mental health problems. There’s a wider need for the reform of male prisons, the housing of trans prisoners may form part of that, but only a part.

Los Angeles (used to) have a sperate wing for gay and trans identified men as late as 2014 (at least that's the latest articles on it). I don't know whether they still do as I know that Los Angeles now houses transwomen in women's prisons if requested...
Now - life on a sperate wing might be decent, or it might be awful and involve discrimination from prison guards, poorer facilities etc. But that's completely within the control of the authorities (and something to actually campaign for).

I don't agree the answer is for vulnerable men to share women's spaces but I think that makes the case for third spaces stronger.

So third spaces for all men vulnerable to male violence?

@BackToLurk Agree, but I wouldn't object to someone campaigning to make life better for a specific group of vulnerable prisoners, because others were also vulnerable (e.g. if someone wanted to provide resources for prisoners with PTSD I wouldn't what-about other groups needing help). So long as they aren't advocating making others less safe. If transwomen/their "allies" were campaigning for the safety of transwomen inside male prisons I don't think it would have caused any issues at all.

I think its dependant on what the space is. Some places (e.g. prison) will often provide separate spaces for those groups. Other places it would be stupid and impractical to have a "vulnerable men" space. How would you even police it?

So my vote would be a mix of 2 and 3.