Let's have a poll!

[AdamRyan]

Thought it would be interesting to see the majority view on this board for what the consensus is on how trans people should be accommodated in society. I want to see what less vocal posters think

Options:

1. as they identify. Exactly the same as the sex they identify with. Access to womens spaces at all times, protected in law.
2. Third spaces: Treated as their acquired sex in most social and work contexts, use third spaces or treated as birth sex for times where biology is important for safety or dignity (i.e. hospitals, prisons, sports, changing rooms, providing or receiving intimate services like waxing, smear tests)
3. As their birth sex. People can choose to refer to them in their acquired gender but there is no expectation of this; all official documentation and interactions with services remains as birth sex.
4. Other - please explain

Let's see!

Read what I said. I said people, not TRAs. I said I've been called a TRA in the past for being in the middle.
I would say I'm GC, so it's very jarring to be called a TRA.

Personally I don't see anything like the same amount of crazed TRAs as there were a few years back (Ada Wells anyone??) So I think maybe the death of self ID has caused a lot of them to move on to some other "cause".

Except it is,because men in skirts and awful wigs are still men.

I mean using pronouns and new names, supporting them to attend events for their acquired sex, generally creating an inclusive atmosphere for trans people wherever that doesn't cause a dignity or safety issue for women

like other posters I was easily in the 2 bracket when all this kicked off, i would probably be a fairly solid 2 now except for the bit above. So i am not quite a three…yet

I've gone the other way. I was more a 3 until people started saying trans people should never be recognised, its the thin end of the wedge, we shouldn't use pronouns, we should refer to them as their birth sex blah blah (cartooning).

Now I see people who have transitioned getting a load of hostility at work and socially from people who feel like they are on some kind of women's rights crusade. It doesn't seem fair, they are just trying to do their job and engage in society. I do think those people need some recognition and support to feel included.

It's quite a far cry from 5 years ago when men who'd put on a bit of lippy (looking at you Alex Drummond) were claiming to be women and getting lauded by the media etc.

Tricky one as I would still vehemently be against self-ID as its a perverts charter (imo)

I'm more focused on women not facing a load of hostility, and getting some recognition and support for their basic needs, like having a usable loo and being allowed to believe in reality. And not being driven out of their resources and spaces and not being raped would also be a plus.

When that's in hand, I'll have capacity left over.

What even is a trans person?

So we treat self declared special people in a special way but there is no way to know why or how these people are special but we all need to change our reality so that they don't feel non special?

So bored with this shit.

As indeed are men with great hair and classy clothes.

Men and women are always treated differently at work.

I’m intrigued what you mean by this OP. I’m not aware of being treated any differently from my male colleagues at work. I do the same work and get the same pay. Could you be a bit more specific about how you might treat a man differently once he says he is a woman? (Other than toilets and pronouns)

Let me tell you a story of entitlement, that makes me very cautious about loopholes in policies, that are written around the assumption that everyone will be reasonable. This is, in my opinion, one of the major factors in our current position: policies, guidelines and legislation written on the premise that people wouldn't make unreasonable demands. To coin a phrase, that people would act in the spirit of the law! Then they do make unreasonable demands, and it turns out that the letter of the law is inadequate to block them.

Last year, there was a twitter thread by a woman whose female rape survivor support group met on a regular basis in the private room of a pub. A male transitioner started attending. The women objected. Then the pub management told the women that they wouldn't be permitted hire the room any more if they were going to exclude males.

So, no support group any more.

So the woman on twitter decided to set up an informal group with the women she'd met there held at her house.

The male transitioner turned up there. When she wouldn't let him in, he called the police, who turned up. The police officer heard both sides, and told the male transitioner that there was no law that meant officers could force her to admit people into her house, and then made the male transitioner leave.

Reportedly, the police officers were great. But if there had been a way for that male to force admission to someone else's home, he would have demanded they use it.

I'm #3 and I would add that what is lacking in this discussion is how I feel more men should do the work of being less threatening to other men who don't dress like them and more welcoming of gender nonconformity. Men are rather silent in this debate because they seem content to push the transwomen on women and make us feel like we need to somehow accommodate them. Fix your own sex, please.

Exactly this. If transwomen don't feel comfortable in with the males then why aren't they lobbying them to be more understanding? Well we all know why.

Third spaces are not wanted anyway by TRAs

So it’s not a ‘middle ground’ that is palatable

Majority of the votes end up with options not wanted by the minority and the law enables the minority

You'd need to change the law to get what the majority want

That is unworkable. No one can expect to be accommodated in society however they want. What I wish to be treated as a goddess, or a diplomat, or as the head of government?
And it has everything to do with women when men demand the right to trample on our boundaries and remove our dingle-sex rights.

I think it's an interesting poll and, if it gets shared all over Twitter, so be it.

There's a tension, however, between what we do as a society and what we do as individuals. Suppose that, as a society, our law, or convention, dictates that trans women are treated as women in the workplace, to all intents and purposes. What happens to individuals who feel uncomfortable with this? Do we compel them to pretend that men can be women? How do we enforce it? Do we penalise them if they refuse to refer to a male as "she"? Sack them, suspend them, fine them? Or just make them feel socially isolated?

To my mind, the issue of compulsion is at the heart of this. Gender ideology can only function if people are forced to pretend that men are women. If they refuse, then the jig's up.

me too. I have fought for equality, equal opportunityy and women's rights since i was a teenager in the 70s and i have absolutely no intention of stopping now. Trans is an issue that gets in the way of that because they are trying to muddy the waters.

They can take care getting their own spaces. But unless and until women have all the space they need - and that includes women who need accessible spaces - I have zero energy to give to help them.

I chose option 3, birth sex, mainly because there wouldn't be enough resources for a third space I don't think in cases such as NHS beds, prisons potentially, rape crisis, pub/restaurant toilets, etc. Plus with sports there just wouldn't be enough interest AFAIK in sponsorship for a third space. Can't see it working really.

Last year, there was a twitter thread by a woman whose female rape survivor support group met on a regular basis in the private room of a pub. A male transitioner started attending. The women objected. Then the pub management told the women that they wouldn't be permitted hire the room any more if they were going to exclude males.

Yes, this is an excellent example of how option 2 in the poll fails to state a position that is even moderately accommodating of women's rights . All we get in that option is a tightly constrained set of specified single-sex provisions, without any protection of the freedom to, eg, book a venue for a woman-only event. A more robust option 2 would include all of the protections that seem to be emerging in employment contexts via tribunal decisions - and extend those protections to situations in which gender critical women are buying services (eg booking a private room in a pub)

It also begins at the starting point that the women owe everything to the male involved, should drop every other concern but whatever the male needs, and the male has no responsibilities to the women whatsoever, despite his presence causing problems. Just a whole lot of demand and entitlement.

How entitled do you have to believe that a group of women survivors must talk about their rapes in front of you however they feel, and they shouldn't be allowed to retreat, even to their own home, to escape you and have privacy, support and help from each other? And to want to stalk them and wreck a group that is helping them rather than consider that they might be a tad busy with their own trauma and disaster right now to revolve around you and what you want from them?

Wtaf should women indulge being treated like that? Who behaves like this and expects others to enable it? It's insane. Had men been able to behave with some reciprocation and extend the same values to women that they demand from them 6-8 years ago, including recognising the need for respected female only spaces, it might have worked. They blew it.

A space with trans women and non-trans women is not, legally, a mixed sex space.

Oh, how did I miss this classic?

A TW with a GRC might be legally female, but that doesn't make him female for evidentiary purposes, and a judge is still entitled as a matter of fact to find that his presence could have a chilling effect on the use of the space by certain women which, in the absence of a female-only alternative, could constitute indirect discrimination.

How about we make all the men's spaces gender neutral?

Works for me!

I've gone the other way i think we’ve probably met in the middle 😀

or very nearly at any rate

How do they solve the trans problem?

If trans women are ok to share toilet facilities with other males then why not just use the male toilets already in existence?

Well, they claim not to be. And a unisex space has other uses. But if there is not enough room, then the men's space should become unisex, not the women's.

You need to define what you mean by 'trans person' before the poll makes sense and also it doesn't take account of non-binary gender identities. Plenty of people do not identify with any of the two binary sexes.

This poll appears to only be talking about a subset of trans people.