Year 8 trans child - in secret

[WoollyMammoth1]

The recent news article about the trans child at a primary school made me think of sharing a similar story at my DD school, big difference being is that's a secondary school.
DD is in year 8, there's a child in her year that identifies as a girl but is a boy. No one at school, besides staff knows, DD doesn't know either as whilst I feel bad withholding the information, I don't want her to keep this secret at school.

The child has a sibling at the school, who calls him by his girl name. They change in the disabled changing room and use the disabled toilet.

I found out through social media, the parent came up as a possible contact, their profile is open and there were many pictures of her children when younger making it very clear. Absolutely no doubt.

When I first found out, I researched and found there is little I can do. The child's rights seem to trump all others.

DD and the child started building a friendship last year, but this went sour. Which I am glad for considering the circumstances.

My issue here is the deceit and secrecy. Non of the year group know the child is a boy which is such an obvious safeguarding risk, and once they find out they'll feel betrayed. Any friendships are based on a lie. And I feel like I am condoning the situation by not saying anything, esp to DD.

The child lives further from school then most other kids, likely to try and ensure there were no other children at the school that might know them.

It feels wrong to keep things quiet, esp for my daughters, and other girls in her year's sake, so hoping that someone here may have some good ideas in where to go from here.

(Long term Mumsnetter, name changed for this post)

Most disabled facilities are actually ‘accessible’ facilities. And for anyone who, for whatever reason, feel they cant use the other toilets.

These children, feel they cannot use the facilities assigned for their sex. And quite rightly, can’t use the one of the gender they are appearing as.

If it’s causing problems for other pupils due to lack of facilities that problem also needs addressing.

You mentioned toilets and changing but what about PE?

If this child is doing PE with the girls then the school is probably breaching the equality act and possibly health and safety rules. Unless they are very careful and only doing certain activities.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/separation-by-sex-implications-for-inspections-of-mixed-sexco-educational-schools/separation-by-sex-implications-for-inspections-of-mixed-sexco-educational-schools#:~:text=Section%20195%20of%20the%20Equality,be%20sustained%20and%20long%2Dterm.

"I would tell the school that unless they make every parent aware then I will be outing the child to everyone."

And AFAIK that would be a hate crime for which you could be charged. A good thing, imho.

Is gossip truly a crime in the UK?

"It's not your business"

Ugh. Pull the other one. Is this the blanket statement that turns into a thought terminating cliché?

If I suspect someone is abusing or neglecting their child but it is behind closed doors, it isn't my business and I shouldn't let anyone else know?

I strongly believe that not helping adolescents settle in their sex and lying to other children about it is child abuse. And the abusers always say - look the other way.

I refuse. We may never agree this is abuse but as long as I believe it is I will not be quiet about it.

I already have mums who believe in corporal punishment, mild versions etc. Who also say the same as you - it's none of your business how I raise my child. It's also a secret. The teachers know. We think the kids don't know. My oldest talks about it.

Child abuse is everyone's business.

It's not about keeping a secret that is personal, it's about tricking people into believing a lie. While the trickery will only last so long, it's fraud because it involves other people and especially because it involves children. Can the adults be so dim to think this subterfuge will last?

There was a boy at my school who may or may not have been convicted of any offence (at the time) but had been thrown out of his previous school for pulling a knife on a teacher or some such. Oddly not many people wanted to be friends with him.

Yet more very muddled thinking.

Allowing children space and time to see that men and women do not need to conform to gender stereotypes is sensible. To show this while allowing the child to dress and identify how they wish is also fine. This is done whilst acknowledge the child's actual sex and continuing to use biologically based pronouns.

What is not fine is a full secret social transition of a boy such that their classmates and teachers appear to believe he's a girl.

He will shortly be going through puberty at which point his sex will become obvious. This will be traumatic both for him and his classmates who've been lied to.

No children should be hiding their sex at school, what a horribly stressful situation for a child to be put in.

It's perfectly fine if there is no disabled person who wishes to use it for the brief time he is in there.

Please can we use the modern and more accurate term Disorders or Differences in Sex Development (DSD) rather than an out dated inaccurate term Intersex. Most DSD only affect people of one sex, very few have both testes and ovaries.

I also would like to correct a pp, people with DSD make up a much smaller % than people who are trans.

There was an interesting article yesterday about Debbie Hayton and a thread
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4994327-thank-you-debbie-hayton-in-the-mail. Debbie states “I have also discovered something deep-seated about myself — that what prompted me to transition was not, in fact, the desire to be a woman but that I was sexually aroused by the thought of myself as a woman.
This is an unusual and little understood sexual condition known as autogynephilia.”

“ I was a boy, but some of my earliest childhood memories are of wanting to wear girls’ clothes. I used to retrieve my mother’s laddered tights from the bin and put them on in private. No one could know. I was ashamed.“

From the Interim Cass Review it is clear that the trans umbrella and gender dysphoria encompasses different conditions/starting points and is not simply a one size fits all. Far more work needs to be done to investigate and understand the root causes and this includes openly discussing very uncomfortable subjects.

No one on this thread, from the op to me, knows the full facts. To me the school appear to be keeping the child separate when changing etc. to protect the privacy and dignity of all the children from a safeguarding perspective this is right.

You know 12 year old boys are capable of and sometimes actually do commit rape don't you?

And AFAIK that would be a hate crime for which you could be charged. A good thing, imho

No, it would not be a hate crime. The only reason it would be a criminal offence is if person 1 had a GRC and person 2 was trusted with the information in an official capacity (I don't agree with this either, as I don't think people should ever be able to lie about their sex or others be made to, but that's the current law).

Children cannot get a GRC. And the poster is not acting in an official capacity. There is no legal duty for other people to conceal the sex of a "trans" person.

I'm not commenting on the rights and wrongs of the situation in question, just clarifying an error.

12 year old children are not the same as predatory men who falsely identify as trans.

You do realise that anyone who identifies as "trans" is "trans" and the act of being predatory doesn't mean your trans identity is false? And 12 year old boys can definitely pose a safeguarding risk towards 12 year old girls.

It's really not.

Why? What if there are no disabled children at his school who need to use the facilities? It's a space that can be used, so it's used. This is not about a disabled toilet, this is about a general hatred in society as always towards trans people. It's pretty vile tbh.

12 year old boys, especially ones who maybe have had access to porn culture and believe female is some sort of set of regressive stereotypes, absolutely are capable of crimes, sexual and otherwise. It is doing every girl in his orbit a disservice not to give them all the information. Probably he's mixed up and has transhausen parents. It doesn't matter. It's not for any adult to remove this basic knowledge from girls learning to form instincts and boundaries.

And 12 - you might not yet know. He's overweight, well hidden. Girls of that age share secrets, things like puberty and periods which are of enormous of enormous significance to them. When he starts to age out, become obvious, how will those girls feel? Lying to them for the sake of his feelings is just wrong.

If you have genuine concerns about this childs safety or the safety of others, you need to raise it with the school, social services, or the police (as appropriate).

You do not spread completely unverified gossip.

What do you think is different about a trans identifying child which makes it inappropriate for them to use the correct facilities for their sex?

Why can't they use facilities for their sex then?

Whenever I read about a case like this it makes me wonder if there are others that have successfully maintained the illusion.

@VivienneDelacroix Where you draw the line is where the risk of harm to other children is greater than the risk to the one. So if a child had been expelled from a previous school for knifing another child I'd feel I had a right to know, if their parent was in prison I would not. If they had, say, measles I'd feel I had a right to know it was in the school, HIV the same - in both cases I dont need the child's name.

If a boy is encouraged to believe he is a girl that not only harms him, because he cant change sex, it puts girls at risk of pregnancy. A girl believing she is a boy is less of a safeguarding risk. I'd be more conflicted on that one but it's still wrong..

If my child asked about a child I believed to be trans I'd answer honestly with why I believed they were. I'd avoid using wrong sex pronouns. If a boy was planning to attend a sleepover with girls it would be my safeguarding duty to warn the parents hosting the sleepover. A teacher failing to warn parents in that situation should be held responsible for a safeguarding failure.

And AFAIK that would be a hate crime for which you could be charged. A good thing, imho.

In the spirit of helpfulness for which this site is renowned, I'm going to remind you that if you are not sure of a fact, Google will help you check. It would have taken you a matter of seconds to find the official definition of "hate crime". Here, for example, is what the CPS says: "Any crime can be prosecuted as a hate crime if the offender has either:

• demonstrated hostility based on race, religion, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity

Or

• been motivated by hostility based on race, religion, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity"

In other words, to be a hate crime, it has to meet two tests. First, an actual crime (eg assault) has to be committed; second, that crime has to have been motivated by hostility based on one of the five characteristics mentioned.

In this case, an actual crime has not been committed. So it can't be a hate crime.

Of course, there are other reasons why the OP might not want to reveal the child's sex, which is why I would strongly recommend writing to the head about it or, preferably, having a meeting with the head to discuss it. Because if the OP's suspicions are correct, and this child really is male, then the school is creating a problem for itself that is going to create a lot of problems down the line.

What happens on residentials? Do transkids get their own room? Or do they go in the dorm consummate with their biological sex? Or do they not go? Because presumably it would be a massive safeguarding risk if males and females shared a dorm, I can't imagine many parents being okay with that either.

I ran a residential trip last year and the rooming was based on biological sex. I'm curious as to what this school will do if the kid wants to go on a residential - own room? That would be far more expensive.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/half-of-recorded-child-sexual-abuse-offences-committed-by-other-children-new-figures-reveal-13044814

There’s been a rise in children committing sexual offences on other children because of their access to violent pornography. NOT saying this boy will do that, but just to corroborate other posters saying 12 isn’t too young and safeguarding must happen.

This all feels like a horrible social experiment. I really hope either the school or his parents haven’t told him everything will be fine, because I just can’t see this ending well. For him or anyone else.

I would mention this to your daughter, she might know already. Kids are amazingly perceptive, but they often take things in their stride and not make a big deal out of it. There was a boy in my DS's Y2 class who used to like wearing dresses - not one kid mentioned it or said anything about it.

But I must say I find it shocking that this boy's parents seem to go to a great lengths to hide the fact he is a boy but leave all sorts of pictures online - children can be cruel, and if this makes it to the older, nastier kids at school there's a big chance this "girl" will get bullied mercilessly. I feel very sorry for this child.