Thank you: Debbie Hayton in the Mail

[Needmoresleep]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13011839/I-went-agonising-operation-thought-woman-finally-make-happy-devastating-revelation.html

A film of his life?

It's as much of a scripted pattern as the Other Woman script.

Suzie's rocking slowly through much of this from their 'bloke in a dress' and 'I'm a male lesbian' starting point.

Sex addiction. Combined with a midlife crisis it's horrible to watch what it does to a person.

When you see it written out like that in a list, it seems almost like boundaries have been created in order to be breached.

Why not come out with it all at once? Why the years-long dripfeed? Why the insistence on breaking every promise made, one by one? Why the need to drag the family into the 'story'?

I'm assuming it's the boundary pushing? And that's all part of it. You can't push boundaries if you haven't allowed any to be created.

Gawd, that's only too plausible.

Also, at the point when Stephanie asked Debbie to leave & he first agreed then changed his mind, their daughter was coming up to her GCSEs. So one more bit of pressure on her to keep things calm.

Yes, and that seems immensely cruel.

@Cailin66 Over-revealing clothing, except when he feels he can’t get away with it? That’s my guess.

Not exactly although that too. I noticed Hayton went for sensible clothing for the Daily Mail photographer not the short teenager summer dresses he often wears to feminist events

I’ve pmed you @Cailin66

Not all trans people are AGP. Women obviously are not, the vast majority of children won't be, though I remember an infamous "peaking" photo of about six years back when an American High School pupil was demanding to use female facilities but with very visible erection under his skirt in the press coverage. I also have sympathy for people, say like, Fionne Orlander, who seems to be battling with gender dysphoria with grace and courage. And indeed RoseofDawn who did important work on highlighting the antics of Jess Bradley and Yaniv.

I also support the idea of breaking down gender stereotypes, as in "wear what you want..."

Being able to actually talk about AGP and the implications, rather than follow the Stonewall cheerleaders in chanting TWAW, TMAM as if everyone falls under a giant umbrella, enables us to talk about other causes for gender confusion, whether it is triggered by trauma, influenced by social media, or, though probably rarely, just is.

Hayton has helped shift the Overton window that bit further. MN was pretty brave to allow debate back in the day, but had to control it to keep the monitors at bay. A discussion of AGP was completely off limits. Hayton may enjoy the attention, but is also allowing valuable sunlight. I would love to see the reports that this thread is attracting. If MN were to follow Josh and the farmers by posting complaints it would make for a fun thread.

Not all trans people are AGP

True. There’s the AGP cross dressers; there’s the gay contingent who have no attraction to women or their clothing; then there are the vulnerable group of gender dysphoric young people who may be variously - on the spectrum; suffering from mental illness - including anxiety, depression, eating disorders esp anorexia, history of trauma and/or abuse; gay- some of whom feel pressured by homophobia to align their gender to their sexual orientation.

Within the AGP group there can be a fetish to cross dress with no desire to transition, with some the desire to transition is the solely fulfilment of the sexual fantasy, with others it can be combined with gender dysphoria real or imagined (ie culturally/socially mediated), and/or mental health issues. Imo obviously.

@Needmoresleep thank you for sharing the second Mail article.

In my opinion it clearly shows the level of gaslighting that he is subjecting his wife to.

She appears to believe that she had to explain to him why some clothing is more suited to going out than to wearing to work at a school. She had to explain to him why it's inappropriate to sit with his legs apart while wearing a skirt. (Funny how many middle-aged men who identify as trans seem to do this while being seen in public or on their social media profiles. Yet zero women ever do this. It's a huge mystery how otherwise intelligent men in their 40s and above could get this so wrong).

It's almost like his behaviour is driven by a sexual fetish.

That doesn't seem to be uncommon. Quite a few of these men seem to transition right when they have teenage daughters.

I wonder if it's envy?

to me it is plain as the nose on my face that persons with gender dysphoria, thinking they are in the wrong bodies are experiencing a mental health issue.

Just as individuals with anorexia, or think their arm does not belong to them are not well simples….

Reading about Debbie's mistakes about wearing completely inappropriate and sexualised clothing reminded me of Freda Wallis and the innocent mistake they made when accidentally flashing their privates while having a debate about men who transition and how womanly they are.

Trans Ideology - a real life debate | Mumsnet

Don't look at the images if you don't have a strong stomach.

Not true that a discussion of AGP was off limits here. I've been discussing it for years, I've just had to do it carefully. It's Trans Widows that have brought AGP to the fore on MN. I'm sure as hell not going to thank Hayton for it.

In fact I think it's us (Trans Widows) who have shifted the Overton window about AGP in general. Not bloody Hayton.

7 years of running a support thread and campaigning and he gets the credit? Fuck that.

DH's truths in last week's article were there to disguise the taste of some personal perceptions, let us say.

One place where I can detransition is the internet. There I can be she or he, Debbie or David. But why make life more difficult and store up issues when the online world crosses over into real life?

Picture the scene: a stranger is trying to find me in a crowded room. Without knowing who I am, they ask for directions from a mutual friend. ‘I’m looking for Debbie Hayton.’

‘Ah, Debbie!’ comes the reply. ‘He is the tall man with the grey hair by the bookcase.’

My friend’s response might have been scientifically accurate, but it would probably not have been much use.

Of course, they could have been told: ‘You see the person over by the bookcase with the grey hair who could be taken for a woman? That’s Debbie.’ But how realistic is that every time I’m pointed out in a crowd?

The simplest reply is, of course, what generally happens: ‘She’s the tall woman with the grey hair…’

Integrity matters — I am just one person and the same person in all contexts, a male transsexual.

I have seen videos of Hayton, and I also know lots of men with long hair. It would be a perfectly practical description. Why is DH saying such a description would be useless, and what would DH gain from making readers think so?

I think KJK saw this post.

https://twitter.com/ThePosieParker/status/1752043651352363088

Part 3 - people not happy in the comments.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-13016871/beautiful-wife-sleep-separate-beds-losing-relationship.html#article-13016871

I can't read it on X (no account and it needs one with age verification) and nitter won't work for me. Would you paraphrase, please?

Hayton has helped shift the Overton window that bit further. MN was pretty brave to allow debate back in the day, but had to control it to keep the monitors at bay. A discussion of AGP was completely off limits.

It's not Hayton who is shifting the Overton Window! And he's not talking about AGP. He's made up some kind of hybrid condition that makes him the hero of his own narrative.

The Transwidows and 'children of transitioners' have done more to show the reality of AGP than Hayton, ffs.

We know all the patterns - the binging and purging, the relentless narcissism, the selfishness, the lies, the hopeless porn consumption, the complete neglect of children, the mirroring of wives' appearance, the haemorrhaging of money, etc, from the women who tell us the truth.

Not the man whose own wife describes him as a 44 year old unmanageable teenager.

And no, AGP is not off limits. i've posted reams about it on here. You're not allowed to accuse anyone of it, that's all.

i've quoted Andrea Long Chu, Jacob Tobia, Julia Serano, Grace Lavery. All authors about AGP and all of them more than happy to confess their misogyny to anyone who listens. Although, of course, they weren't trying to sell their books to Daily Mail readers.

It's really quite remarkable that anyone could possibly think that the women of mumsnet, who have set up these websites, been consulted across the board on their expertise, and helped turn FWR into a place of knowledge and fierce activism, should be thanking Debbie Hayton for any of it!

Strewth.

KJK questioned whether it would be necessary to describe hayton as 'the women by the bookcase' to ensure anyone knew who he was.

Well at least we've got permission from him now to say 'the male transexual by the bookcase' 😊