Thank you: Debbie Hayton in the Mail

[Needmoresleep]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13011839/I-went-agonising-operation-thought-woman-finally-make-happy-devastating-revelation.html

Hayton says if he could turn back the clock, he would never have transitioned?

Good Lord. All he has to do, literally, is stop wearing women's clothes.

No one will know he's had surgery.

Job done.

It's really quite remarkable that anyone could possibly think that the women of mumsnet, who have set up these websites, been consulted across the board on their expertise, and helped turn FWR into a place of knowledge and fierce activism, should be thanking Debbie Hayton for any of it!

Strewth.

I can't get over the idea that we should be grateful to our abusers for supposedly enabling us to talk about their abuse.

The BTLers on the DM are sick of him already. It's like seeing this thread in miniature.

Favourite comment:

"Gender reassignment almost destroyed 30-year marriage." Shocked...I'm telling you, shocked! Smh.

Exactly.

DH is responding to trans widows. If women like Tinsel hadn't managed to speak out at all, I doubt DH would be mentioning the condition.

H realises it is better to partially acknowledge AGP and describe it in DH's own fashion, than to pretend it doesn't exist.

Strewth

Amen. 👏

KJK took a screenshot of the same passage in the DM article and responded in her inimitable way. Suffice it to say, she is incredulous at the idea that "the tall woman with the grey hair" could be considered the most effective description.

<waves to KJK>

I do think it’s significant that DH has splashed (his version of) his story in the Daily Mail. It may even be helpful to an extent in informing people who have not read all about it here or anywhere else; but it’s also unhelpful because it’s not immediately obvious where he is holding back from complete honesty, and some of what he says is misleading. However, the comments below this third instalment show that quite a lot of people are spotting how badly he has treated his family, and that he still hasn’t rowed back completely. If this helps people to be wary of husbands’ and fathers’ motives for transition, that’s a good thing. Clearly some people in their church saw his behaviour for what it did to his family, and others excused him.

Debbie teaches physics at a Bristol secondary school; Stephanie — who also used to teach physics — now works for the Church of England overseeing training of the laity in her diocese. Both she and Debbie are church-going Christians.

I think the wrong one left teaching. Dr Stephanie must have been such an inspiration to female students.

heathspeedwell
She appears to believe that she had to explain to him why some clothing is more suited to going out than to wearing to work at a school. She had to explain to him why it's inappropriate to sit with his legs apart while wearing a skirt.

Agreed, a male teacher of teenage girls will be very well aware what is appropriate and inappropriate clothing for school..

I suspect he was pushing hers and the schools boundaries again

100% the Transwidows threads were eye opening and reading those mail extracts he follows the pattern down to the over spending on make-up and other trappings of femininity

Stephanie is not a loquacious interviewee but what she does say is very significant and I suspect the facts would horrify us if she were inclined to provide more detail on how Hayton treated/treats his family.

Stephanie is always putting her children and even her husband before herself; she deserves better than being shackled to a marriage that isn’t in any way recognisable as what she signed up to. In every photo it looks like her energy is being siphoned from her by her husband.

Hayton may be desperate for companionship but I don’t think he’s doing his family, or his wife, any favours by keeping her in this stasis.

SS of JKJ's tweet/X???! Mentioned up thread
Other SS to provide contrast to the DM clothing choices

DH is responding to trans widows. If women like Tinsel hadn't managed to speak out at all, I doubt DH would be mentioning the condition.

This.

And if he can rebrand it, leave out all the bad bit and spin the rest, he controls it.

Unfortunately for him, people are not that stupid. Or inexperienced. AGP is no-where near as rare as he says it is.

Frankly I think it takes a colossal ego to imagine that you can spin AGP for any length of time.

Honestly, it might work. The first definition or explanation you read/encounter of a phenomenon, be it AGP or atomic shells, tends to stick.

Ask any A-level physics pupil doggedly trying to unlearn the simplifications taught at GCSE!

Surely to god he can't think that he is in anyway a decent person just because he admits to involving school kids in propping up his fetish?

how the hell is he still in teaching when he freely admits he is aroused by being perceived as a woman?

I think that there are men who have been very let down by the medical profession on this. Not helped to find any clarity on their internal processes, and encouraged to take very serious medical steps. And really given no help to try and control or lessen their sexual compulsions.

It would be difficult to go back, I think, once you'd gone so far as the genital surgery.

Pratchett described it so well (and apposite in this case).

Any explanation of an observed phenomenon which, while not 100% scientifically accurate, is simple enough, and just accurate enough, to convey the beginnings of understanding to anyone who is new to the subject. There is always time to fill them in on the fine detail further down the road. This describes the sort of axioms we tell young children when they are beginning to get to grips with science.
"A “lie-to-children” is a statement which is false, but which nevertheless leads the child’s mind towards a more accurate explanation, one that the child will only be able to appreciate if it has been primed with the lie."
"Yes, you needed to understand that” they are told, “so that now we can tell you why it isn’t exactly true”(The Science of Discworld, Ebury Press edition, quotes from pp 41-42)
There are many well known lies-to-children including that electrons orbit the nucleus like a little solar system, DNA looks like a spiral ladder and Albert Einstein's hair having something to do with his discovering the theory of relativity.

It can be so difficult to unlearn lies…

Othering myself to say what i hope is meaningful. This is a very significant thread for me, because it reflects the experiences and feelings of the original vanguard of the GC movement.

We newcomers arrive from wherever, and question things or seem to the vanguard to fail to understand the history of some of the players that rightly piss them off.

But until recently none of this was really in the public domain and for newcomers some of the history, the vanguards knowledge is untraceable, without spending endless hours….

As is some of the code words our sisters use, to not be deleted. To keep their efforts going, to educate, to inform. Providing me with relevant links.

I am slowly working code words out, as part of my journey It’s bad that this was a method of communication, that was required. And to some extent still is.

Although it became fun with the Christmas special “Scraper the Rossers are coming”

I also think this board is now attracting some left females such as myself. I thought Joyce was very salient about GC and our bedfellows. GC is a broad church it must be focussed on its objectives, women’s rights, and not worry about, left, right, centre allegiances.

I have not had the time to track this board or how it was conceived but it is historically important, and a book ought to be written about it when we have won (or lost) oh and the key players.

I was involved in the miners strike and the similarities of where one stands in history are very familiar to I me.

PS I have committed to read DH book so i am going to need a GC helmet and radio contact.

All the very best to all of you xx

https://blackwells.co.uk/bookshop/product/9781839094712

😁

Thanks arabella see i know fuck all

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0C129WKDD?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

I can see my reading list is going to expand somewhat.

I found it strange that he talks about who people would refer to “the tall man with the grey hair” or “the tall woman”. In most cases, you could just say, “the transvestite in the corner” and everyone would know exactly who you were referring to - clocking him instantly. It seems a bit disingenuous that. Also about him admitting the driver to look like a woman is a sexual one and how he prefers his body this way, it seems slightly antisocial- to live a sexually driven preference in public - especially working at a school.

I think it's a little naive to think many people have learned about AGP from transwidows. Most people haven't heard about it at all, still. A few more have heard it and that it is a myth.

I see Hayton as very similar to accounts by addicts, who, by the by, are also quite often extremely selfish, manipulative, lacking in personal insight, and inclined to self-deception.

It's still useful for many reasons to hear their accounts. And accounts of other observers, both people close to them, who can of course have their own biases, and people who are observing from a therapeutic background, and scientific sources, can contribute to building a picture.

No one is required to read any of it if they don't want to.

Thread about recent-ish Sarah Pedersen's paper (Pedersen joined it):

Pedersen, S. (2022). ‘They've got an absolute army of women behind them’: The Formation of a Women's Cooperative Constellation in Contemporary Scotland. Scottish affairs, 31(1), 1-20.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4478528-theyve-got-an-absolute-army-behind-them-womens-cooperative-constellation-in-Scotland