Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another GC Employment Tribunal: Roz Adams vs Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre #5

976 replies

nauticant · 24/01/2024 15:43

Roz Adams was employed by Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre (ERCC) as a counsellor. She is claiming constructive dismissal for Gender Critical (GC) beliefs. The CEO of ERCC is a well known transwoman known for, among other things, controversial "reframe your trauma" remarks.

There's live tweeting from https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets or if Twitter doesn't show the tweets, look at https://nitter.net/tribunaltweets. There's an informative substack here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre

This post explains how to get access to watch the hearing: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4988632-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-2?page=24&reply=132419912

Abbreviations:
J: Employment Judge McFatridge
RA: Roz Adams, the claimant
NC: Naomi Cunningham, barrister for the claimant
ERCC or R: Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, the respondent
DH: David Hay KC, barrister for the respondent
KM: Katy McTernan, ERCC Senior management
MR: Mairi Rosko, ERCC Board Member
MS: Miren Sagues, ERCC Board Member
KH: Katie Horburgh, ERCC Board Member
AB: ERCC staff member (name redacted)
NCi: Nico Ciubotariu, COO of ERCC
MW: Mridul Wadhwa, CEO of ERCC
BP: Beira's Place

RA gave evidence over 15-18 January 2024.

Witnesses:
Nicole Jones (NJ): 18 January 2024 (on behalf of RA)
Mairi Rosko (MR): 19 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
Katy McTernan (referred to both as KT and KM): 22-23 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
Miren Sagues (MS): 24 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
Katie Horburgh (KH): 24 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)

Thread #1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4985570-another-gc-employment-tribunal-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crsis
Thread #2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4988632-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-2
Thread #3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4990903-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-3
Thread #4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4991883-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-4

OP posts:
Thread gallery
32
RedToothBrush · 26/01/2024 21:46

Karensalright · 26/01/2024 20:29

@Emotionalsupportviper thing is ignoring the GRA for a moment these provisions already exist, in the EQA and are having to be case by case, re-asserted in the courts which is happening.

What has been going on is playing with the common meaning of words, to suit the TRA agenda.

The EQA needs firming up to make clear what male and female as a protected sex means, ie biological sex, that which has been determined/established, by a qualified medical person, at birth/and or in vitro.

The job of determining the law and advising government is the responsibility of the equalities commission but as demonstrated in the past it has been incorrectly swayed.

The Equalities Act should therefore, as you state needs to also include some examples of sex based reserved services, single sex facilities, education etc.

And also flowing from that what a gender identity means in law and the parameters of what that should entitle a non conforming individual, to be legally entitled to under the Equalities Act, and what they can be lawfully excluded from in terms of biologically reserved spaces.

No small order

If they got the Equalities Act firmed up then the GRA would just fade into obscurity, as some laws just do without repeal.

Happy to hear disagreement BTW

The problem is not the GRA as such but a belief in a hierarchy of identity status.

The Equality Act doesn't work like this. The very basic premise of the Equality Act is to balance the needs of multiple groups to avoid any group being significantly harmed or disadvantaged in a particular situation.

In some situations one group may be more disadvantaged but in another they may not be.

This failure to understand the principle is the point.

Thus the Equality Act had written into it the section 9 exception. But no one seems to have grasped why that clause was ever written and for what purposes (even though it gives explicit examples).

It doesn't seem to grasp that trans equality was about not being disadvantaged within your own sex - so trans men should be given all the rights of women and transwomen should be given all the rights of men - not cross sex.

These are real fundamental misunderstandings of the Equality Act which are quite separate to the GRA.

Even if you removed the GRA I think we'd still be seeing a whole bunch of these issues because no one is grasping the Equality bit of the Equality Act and how it's situation dependent.

We are also in this mindset where a lot of people think women do have equality and don't recognise how and why women are being discriminated against - the whole talk of changing how you measure the gender pay gap shows that. Anyone who understands sexism in the world place and the effect of childbearing knows this. But there's still this notion that now women have jobs it's all fair. Except it's not.

Karensalright · 26/01/2024 22:17

@RedToothBrush I totally agree with what you say. It has always been my thought that there is an assumption that womens rights equal pay bla bla is sorted and needs no further attention, so society can move onto some other group.

Propertylover · 26/01/2024 22:35

@RedToothBrush I agree the EA2010 is actually much more nuanced than people think. If you do a proper Equality Impact Assessment you think about it from all perspectives.

LoobiJee · 27/01/2024 07:20

Propertylover · 26/01/2024 20:06

That is a very different tone to the initial statement. So glad they have apologised to Jo.

Perhaps they went and had a look at the remedy hearing / compensation judgments in other ETs and had second thoughts about their initial stances - iirc refusing to apologise / making out they weren’t in the wrong after a judgment found they against them increased the payout in some cases.

ArabellaScott · 27/01/2024 07:54

The EA needs to be workable and easily understood.

Currently it's making a lot of money for lawyers because nobody is clear on how it should be interpreted - and I mean nobody - lawyers are arguing, the EHRC shrugged their shoulders on the matter of how sex should be defined, the gov keeps promising guidance that never turns up....

It's a fucking mess and it needs sorted.

RethinkingLife · 27/01/2024 08:54

Currently it's making a lot of money for lawyers because nobody is clear on how it should be interpreted - and I mean nobody - lawyers are arguing, the EHRC shrugged their shoulders on the matter of how sex should be defined, the gov keeps promising guidance that never turns up....

I'm wondering if it's approaching the levels of complexity associated with contracts and tax because of the contrived rather than initials instability of the meanings of sex, gender, woman etc.

But there was comparatively little interest because it's only women at its core and trapped in this mess. It's attracting more empathy and attention in a wider world only when it's emphasised that it involves free speech, free thought, the workplace etc. It's not 'just' Terven Academicals.

Emotionalsupportviper · 27/01/2024 09:26

Terven Academicals.

On a lighter note this would be a brilliant name for a women's football team.

LarkLane · 27/01/2024 10:09

Emotionalsupportviper · 27/01/2024 09:26

Terven Academicals.

On a lighter note this would be a brilliant name for a women's football team.

Brilliant. No need to guess the team colours.

IcakethereforeIam · 27/01/2024 10:19

Two forwards, the Courage twins. I'd love to hear the commentary.

RedToothBrush · 27/01/2024 10:40

RethinkingLife · 27/01/2024 08:54

Currently it's making a lot of money for lawyers because nobody is clear on how it should be interpreted - and I mean nobody - lawyers are arguing, the EHRC shrugged their shoulders on the matter of how sex should be defined, the gov keeps promising guidance that never turns up....

I'm wondering if it's approaching the levels of complexity associated with contracts and tax because of the contrived rather than initials instability of the meanings of sex, gender, woman etc.

But there was comparatively little interest because it's only women at its core and trapped in this mess. It's attracting more empathy and attention in a wider world only when it's emphasised that it involves free speech, free thought, the workplace etc. It's not 'just' Terven Academicals.

Probably.

The thought process politically is if it involves women they can just put up and shut up.

Every single issue that affects women more, no matter how serious, is a low political priority.

I don't necessarily agree that the Act is that difficult to understand. The problem is the willful and deliberate attempts to get around it. A clarification about biological sex would be useful to reduce these problems and actually is only a minor point to amend.

The public isn't engaged with what the law says, they just go along with what they heard the law says on twitter. They don't understand how rights need to be balanced.

Thus the populism of Stonewall has managed to gain traction in so many places.

It's about the spread of deliberate misinformation and a lack of general knowledge from the public.

Why do I say this? Well let's take a look at the intro blurb for the Equality Act reads as follows:

An Act to make provision to require Ministers of the Crown and others when making strategic decisions about the exercise of their functions to have regard to the desirability of reducing socio-economic inequalities; to reform and harmonise equality law and restate the greater part of the enactments relating to discrimination and harassment related to certain personal characteristics; to enable certain employers to be required to publish information about the differences in pay between male and female employees; to prohibit victimisation in certain circumstances; to require the exercise of certain functions to be with regard to the need to eliminate discrimination and other prohibited conduct; to enable duties to be imposed in relation to the exercise of public procurement functions; to increase equality of opportunity; to amend the law relating to rights and responsibilities in family relationships; and for connected purposes.

If the point of the act is to reduce victimisation in certain circumstances, how come men are being allowed into women's changing rooms?

This isn't a difficult question.

This is a numbers game. And a deliberate blindness to how it affects women and minorities.

And if the issue is about harm to transpeople, the default solution is surely third spaces, not to increase the number of victims to include transwomen.

The evidence is already there with regards to changing villages and how women are at risk from males.

We are having public conversations which makes no sense, if you put that single point written in the intro to the Equality Act front and central.

Then look at this point:
to enable certain employers to be required to publish information about the differences in pay between male and female employees

This is actually explicit. Male and female. Not a woolly discussion about the word woman. It's using the words male and female. Not gender. Why?

Because the issue of pay difference relates to biology over and above any other reason. And everyone knew and understood this when the act was written. We still know this now - but there's a deliberate act to try and sweep this under the carpet with the manipulation of data because it suits political purposes and corporate purposes. It's economically inconvenient for authority to admit this so instead women will pay the price. Our social conversations are being directed in a particular way and certain topics are being deliberately silenced so the public can't redress this. Top down power.

(Note here that human rights are all about rebalancing power from power, authority and the state to individual citizens - and this was well understood but isn't so much now)

And yet we have a serious discussion going on at the minute about changing how this is measured from sex to gender identity.

We know there will be an economic impact on this.

And surely this is absolutely definitely undisputably against what the Equality Act is about?

This is why the word sex - in addition to gender identity - being written into the act is so important. Why is the word sex there at all if sex = gender? You don't need to use both words if they mean the same personal characteristic.

That's why gender idealists don't want to talk about the word sex.

The problem ISN'T the Equality Act. The problem is the willful and deliberate conflation of sex with gender and attempting to replace sex with gender by those in positions of power who know that it's very difficult for individuals to actually use the law to enforce their rights. By creating confusion, Stonewall created an entire market for themselves on this, which they could cash in on. This confusion was deliberately created and did not exist even a few years ago.

Lawyers have only got involved after the fact when brave individuals have picked up on how this is all a load of bollocks. It's bollocks for bollocks. And time and again rulings are going one way because of one word: sex.

Every form you have that asks you your gender not sex because they are too prudish to use the word sex mattered. Now gender is just accepted as a substitute even though it means something completely different.

So I don't agree the problem is the Equality Act itself and that it's unworkable. I think the problem is outright good old fashioned sexism combined with a growing poverty and growing power from authorities and organisations over individuals.

This is powerful men's rights movement combined with corporate power which wants to hide the issues women have - for sexually motivated reasons, for pure power reasons and for economic reasons.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

It's about exploitation of women. And the power of males over females.

The only thing that needs to change here in terms of the Equality Act is to state and reinforce that the word sex matters and it relates to biological sex. That's just to remove deliberate attempts to conflate language. This is about deliberate attempts to change language to undermine the law, not a problem with the law in and of itself.

TervenAcademicals · 27/01/2024 10:44

Couldn't resist 😉

Emotionalsupportviper · 27/01/2024 10:49

RedToothBrush · 27/01/2024 10:40

Probably.

The thought process politically is if it involves women they can just put up and shut up.

Every single issue that affects women more, no matter how serious, is a low political priority.

I don't necessarily agree that the Act is that difficult to understand. The problem is the willful and deliberate attempts to get around it. A clarification about biological sex would be useful to reduce these problems and actually is only a minor point to amend.

The public isn't engaged with what the law says, they just go along with what they heard the law says on twitter. They don't understand how rights need to be balanced.

Thus the populism of Stonewall has managed to gain traction in so many places.

It's about the spread of deliberate misinformation and a lack of general knowledge from the public.

Why do I say this? Well let's take a look at the intro blurb for the Equality Act reads as follows:

An Act to make provision to require Ministers of the Crown and others when making strategic decisions about the exercise of their functions to have regard to the desirability of reducing socio-economic inequalities; to reform and harmonise equality law and restate the greater part of the enactments relating to discrimination and harassment related to certain personal characteristics; to enable certain employers to be required to publish information about the differences in pay between male and female employees; to prohibit victimisation in certain circumstances; to require the exercise of certain functions to be with regard to the need to eliminate discrimination and other prohibited conduct; to enable duties to be imposed in relation to the exercise of public procurement functions; to increase equality of opportunity; to amend the law relating to rights and responsibilities in family relationships; and for connected purposes.

If the point of the act is to reduce victimisation in certain circumstances, how come men are being allowed into women's changing rooms?

This isn't a difficult question.

This is a numbers game. And a deliberate blindness to how it affects women and minorities.

And if the issue is about harm to transpeople, the default solution is surely third spaces, not to increase the number of victims to include transwomen.

The evidence is already there with regards to changing villages and how women are at risk from males.

We are having public conversations which makes no sense, if you put that single point written in the intro to the Equality Act front and central.

Then look at this point:
to enable certain employers to be required to publish information about the differences in pay between male and female employees

This is actually explicit. Male and female. Not a woolly discussion about the word woman. It's using the words male and female. Not gender. Why?

Because the issue of pay difference relates to biology over and above any other reason. And everyone knew and understood this when the act was written. We still know this now - but there's a deliberate act to try and sweep this under the carpet with the manipulation of data because it suits political purposes and corporate purposes. It's economically inconvenient for authority to admit this so instead women will pay the price. Our social conversations are being directed in a particular way and certain topics are being deliberately silenced so the public can't redress this. Top down power.

(Note here that human rights are all about rebalancing power from power, authority and the state to individual citizens - and this was well understood but isn't so much now)

And yet we have a serious discussion going on at the minute about changing how this is measured from sex to gender identity.

We know there will be an economic impact on this.

And surely this is absolutely definitely undisputably against what the Equality Act is about?

This is why the word sex - in addition to gender identity - being written into the act is so important. Why is the word sex there at all if sex = gender? You don't need to use both words if they mean the same personal characteristic.

That's why gender idealists don't want to talk about the word sex.

The problem ISN'T the Equality Act. The problem is the willful and deliberate conflation of sex with gender and attempting to replace sex with gender by those in positions of power who know that it's very difficult for individuals to actually use the law to enforce their rights. By creating confusion, Stonewall created an entire market for themselves on this, which they could cash in on. This confusion was deliberately created and did not exist even a few years ago.

Lawyers have only got involved after the fact when brave individuals have picked up on how this is all a load of bollocks. It's bollocks for bollocks. And time and again rulings are going one way because of one word: sex.

Every form you have that asks you your gender not sex because they are too prudish to use the word sex mattered. Now gender is just accepted as a substitute even though it means something completely different.

So I don't agree the problem is the Equality Act itself and that it's unworkable. I think the problem is outright good old fashioned sexism combined with a growing poverty and growing power from authorities and organisations over individuals.

This is powerful men's rights movement combined with corporate power which wants to hide the issues women have - for sexually motivated reasons, for pure power reasons and for economic reasons.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

It's about exploitation of women. And the power of males over females.

The only thing that needs to change here in terms of the Equality Act is to state and reinforce that the word sex matters and it relates to biological sex. That's just to remove deliberate attempts to conflate language. This is about deliberate attempts to change language to undermine the law, not a problem with the law in and of itself.

The problem is the willful and deliberate conflation of sex with gender and attempting to replace sex with gender by those in positions of power

This is powerful men's rights movement combined with corporate power which wants to hide the issues women have - for sexually motivated reasons, for pure power reasons and for economic reasons.
Excellent post all round

reinforce that the word sex matters and it relates to biological sex. That's just to remove deliberate attempts to conflate language

YES!

Excellent post in every respect. Thank you

RedToothBrush · 27/01/2024 10:49

I also stress the point about what Keir Starmer's specialism was.

He was a Human Rights lawyer yet he isn't talking about the issues here over balancing needs and reducing/preventing harms to all.

This is significant.

Emotionalsupportviper · 27/01/2024 10:50

TervenAcademicals · 27/01/2024 10:44

Couldn't resist 😉

😂😂😂

Wish I'd thought of it!

RethinkingLife · 27/01/2024 10:50

LarkLane · 27/01/2024 10:09

Brilliant. No need to guess the team colours.

Who is the illustrator who does the amazing illustrations? Moley?

I can see the line-up and the colours now.

Opposing teams? Names? Team colours?

Emotionalsupportviper · 27/01/2024 10:58

RethinkingLife · 27/01/2024 10:50

Who is the illustrator who does the amazing illustrations? Moley?

I can see the line-up and the colours now.

Opposing teams? Names? Team colours?

Is it Moleatthecounter? Something like that.

I was evicted from Twitter for the crime of suggesting that men couldn't be women long before it became X, and I can't remember.

DuesToTheDirt · 27/01/2024 11:04

From the Tribunal Tweets substack:

The hearing took place at Edinburgh Employment Tribunal from 15 to 24 January 2024.
Oral submissions will be heard on 3rd April 2024, the first available date for the Tribunal panel and both counsel. It then could be 3-6 months before the judgment is handed down.

I don't generally follow employment tribunals. What are the oral submissions? They explain the gap between the hearing and the oral submissions, but then why such a gap till the judgement?

RethinkingLife · 27/01/2024 11:06

DuesToTheDirt · 27/01/2024 11:04

From the Tribunal Tweets substack:

The hearing took place at Edinburgh Employment Tribunal from 15 to 24 January 2024.
Oral submissions will be heard on 3rd April 2024, the first available date for the Tribunal panel and both counsel. It then could be 3-6 months before the judgment is handed down.

I don't generally follow employment tribunals. What are the oral submissions? They explain the gap between the hearing and the oral submissions, but then why such a gap till the judgement?

The Phoenix judgment was >150pgs.

It takes a while to consider the evidence on such an important topic and to write it in a thoughtful way that is unlikely to be appealed by either side.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 27/01/2024 11:10

Oral submissions are the closing statement by the barrister for each side summing up their case. Normally they'd happen on the last day of the scheduled hearing (often a day or 2 after the last witness is questioned, to allow them time to put everything together), but in this case the evidence-giving and examinations ran over time so they needed to find an extra slot for closing submissions.

Madcats · 27/01/2024 11:15

Why are the oral submissions in April?

ERCC and Roz's barristers each do a "summing up" or submission once all the evidence has been heard. (I am not clear about Scottish law, but) I think these are normally written by the barristers in Scotland, whereas in E&W they are usually spoken.

NC asked to give an oral submission (it is easier to pick up emphasis and nuance, I am guessing). The tribunal therefore needed to find a date that worked for the panel and both parties (and a room etc).

SinnerBoy · 27/01/2024 11:18

RedToothBrush · Yesterday 21:46

The problem is not the GRA as such but a belief in a hierarchy of identity status.

The Equality Act doesn't work like this. The very basic premise of the Equality Act is to balance the needs of multiple groups to avoid any group being significantly harmed or disadvantaged in a particular situation.

Unfortunately, many people are labouring under the false impression that there IS a hierarchy, with trans at the top. My daughter, who has experienced sex based and race based bullying is under the impression that the worst sort of bullying is anti-trans. I've tried explaining that nobody is more valuable than another, but she doesn't get it.

SinnerBoy · 27/01/2024 11:19

Whilst it's good that the OU have actually admitted that they were wrong, the apology contains this statement:

The University has supported and continues to support the work of the Gender Critical Research Network (GCRN) as part of the many important research activities that take place at the OU.

It's not really what you'd call "true," is it?

RedToothBrush · 27/01/2024 11:34

SinnerBoy · 27/01/2024 11:18

RedToothBrush · Yesterday 21:46

The problem is not the GRA as such but a belief in a hierarchy of identity status.

The Equality Act doesn't work like this. The very basic premise of the Equality Act is to balance the needs of multiple groups to avoid any group being significantly harmed or disadvantaged in a particular situation.

Unfortunately, many people are labouring under the false impression that there IS a hierarchy, with trans at the top. My daughter, who has experienced sex based and race based bullying is under the impression that the worst sort of bullying is anti-trans. I've tried explaining that nobody is more valuable than another, but she doesn't get it.

That perfectly illustrates the point about a lack of understanding of human rights (not the equality act) and misinformtion and the influence of populism on this.

The law is effectively being disrupted by populism, which is why it isn't fit for purpose.

In order to be fit for purpose it would need to state explicitly about biological sex.

The law itself does, in effect, discuss balancing needs and preventing harm. Its public understanding of this thats twisted.

This is where 'Invisible Women' is such and important book and discussion on why data collection matters and why we need to be able to see sex.

We definitely need more femininism to fight this corner, not less visibility of sex and sex defining words like 'woman'. Indeed, we know that societies which don't have sex defining words have more sexism yet we have a movement actively pushing for more gender neutral words!

We KNOW all this. We can demonstrate this through research.

The genderists ALSO know this. Why do you think they want to stop research and academics who are picking up on this?

Its not a coincedence. Authoritarianism ALWAYS targets academics as a first port because of the influence they have on society. This is about power and control.

Once you see it, it is impossible to unsee.

Froodwithatowel · 27/01/2024 11:38

The law is effectively being disrupted by populism, which is why it isn't fit for purpose.

And safeguarding failures, where shameless marketing of misinformation in pretty wrappers has brainwashed kids and those with less critical thinking skills.

SaffronSpice · 27/01/2024 11:39

DuesToTheDirt · 27/01/2024 11:04

From the Tribunal Tweets substack:

The hearing took place at Edinburgh Employment Tribunal from 15 to 24 January 2024.
Oral submissions will be heard on 3rd April 2024, the first available date for the Tribunal panel and both counsel. It then could be 3-6 months before the judgment is handed down.

I don't generally follow employment tribunals. What are the oral submissions? They explain the gap between the hearing and the oral submissions, but then why such a gap till the judgement?

They need to consider the evidence, weigh it up against the current law, and write up the judgement. They need to find time to do this in between hearings for other court cases.

On the other hand, I remember hearing a talk by a retired but very senior judge who apparently wrote his judgements within a week or two. His judge colleagues complained it made the judgements seem less considered… so he put them in a drawer for a month. No idea how real this is or if he was just making a point but you sometimes wonder!