Confused on the concept of non binary

[ireallycantthinkofaname]

Please be nice, i am not the sharpest knife in the box under normal circumstances and I'm running on about 6 hrs sleep over the past week at the minute.....

But something I've been trying and failing to understand re. the concept of 'non binary' in the 'gender movement' (or whatever it is/ought to be called) is that on the one hand, people who subscribe to that philosophy are saying they reject the traditional idea of explicit male/femaleness (because if "trans women are women" then they have swapped for instance). But then if you have 'non binary' individuals isn't that pretty much saying oh yes, actually there is a binary - and some people don't subscribe to it?

I do acknowledge sex =/= gender but not all NB people are intersex/have DSD

<<thoroughly discombobulated>>

You aren’t conscious all the time, but some of the time you are. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make.

Being female and thinking you’re female are different things; that’s what I’ve been saying. Most people who are female, think they’re female.

Being female and thinking you’re female are different things; that’s what I’ve been saying. Most people who are female, think they’re female.

Yes, because they know what their sex is. That's the only reason most people think they are female.

Most female people, I should say.

They can be making a mistake / or later reevaluate both thoughts.

I don’t need to think I’m female, in the same way that I don’t need to think that I have opposable thumbs.

It’s a clearly observable fact independent of what I may or may not think.

Nobody has to have conscious thought about whether they are male or female, but many / most do.

Nobody has to have conscious thought about sexuality, but many / most do.

This is irrelevant.

Nobody has to have conscious thought about sexuality, but many / most do.

And much of that is down to cultural and societal norms and whether homosexuality is acceptable within those norms.

Nobody has to have conscious thought about whether they are male or female, but many / most do.

Really? You think that many / most people have to consider whether biological reality applies to them or not?

And? Check tenses. I may conclude I'm not gay - that is, I conclude I am not same-sex-attracted. It doesn't follow that I was never same-sex-attracted, does it? And if I was, I was gay. By definition.

And, to labour the point slightly, to think I am (or was) attracted is to be (or have been) attracted. (A bit like how things seem. Things may not be how they seem, it's true; but if I think things seem thus-and-so, then they do seem thus-and-so, for sure. Attraction is like that in that way.)

And, to labour a little more, to think I am non-binary can never be (or have been) true, because no human is (or has ever been) neither male nor female.

So there's a big difference between sexuality and trans/non-binary. 'T' doesn't really belong with 'LGB' at all.

“Nobody has to have conscious thought about whether they are male or female, but many / most do.

Really? You think that many / most people have to consider whether biological reality applies to them or not?”

No, I said they don’t have to.

If no one had ever heard of the concept of "female" there would still be primarily two clear types of human body. With two reproductive roles. That's all that's meant.

@Peasandsweetcorns so you'd agree that if someone female thought they were female, they would be thinking about a true thought. If someone female thought they were male, they would be thinking a false thought. The truth or falseness of each of those can be objectively checked, you'd agree?

No. You miss the point again. Try with 'feel':

If I sincerely say I feel attracted to you, it must be true. Why? Because to feel attracted is to be attracted.

Not so for feeling I am a different sex, which must be false.

Do the rest for yourself. Got to go.

Other people know I'm female.

What I might think about whether I'm female or not it is neither here nor there.

Self perceptions can be wrong. They aren’t automatically true, just because you had them.

You could set some criteria for truth and evaluate against them, if you wanted, yes.

So what would you set as the criteria for truth as to whether someone is male or female, @Peasandsweetcorns ?

I know what my criteria would be.

But you did say “but many / most do”.

Do they now? How do you know that?

I wouldn’t set any, as I know that different people have different criteria, and I don’t believe in male or female essences.

Most people are conscious of being male or female.

anyway - got to go.

I'm not being obtuse, but honestly I cannot understand what non-binary people mean when they say they don't 'feel' male or female. It's very different from sexuality. I'm bisexuall, and it's easy to explain: I'm attracted to men and women. But the problem with non binary is it assumes that the blunt fact of being female has an associated feeling with it, when it doesn't. it's like saying you don't 'feel' tall when you're 7 foot, or you don't feel you have white skin, or you don't feel you have red hair. The confusion for me arises from the fact that they say they don't feel like something they obviously are. This seems to be more deluded, than anything else. It's like you sometimes hear of men who routinely have sex with other men, who are attracted to them etc, but who continually maintain they are actually straight. At that point you just think they are in denial.

The only way it can make sense for me is if non-binary people are really saying they don't feel particularly masculine or feminine, and they don't want to go along with society's stereotypes of how men and women should be. That's fine, but I don't see how this differs in any way from simply being gender non conforming. Another confusion is that very often the non binary people I know DO subscribe to gender stereotypes. One person I know made a massive fuss about being non binary (and thought i was the devil incarnate for being gender critical) but she had long flowing hair, makeup, flowery froo froo dresses.

Most people are conscious of being male or female.

Yes, because they know what sex they are?

I know that different people have different criteria

It has an objective scientific meaning.

A person whose gender identity matches the usual criteria for their sex assigned at birth doesn't "feel" any discrepancy, any more than a person with proprioception notices that they instinctively know where their limbs are. So, yes, it makes sense that you wouldn't understand what it's like to be non-binary. You might not know what it's like to be, say, gay, but you understand the concept.

If you were moved to a body which had different sex characteristics, you would feel the discrepancy.

Gender expression is not per se related to gender identity, and transgender and non-binary people don't have a special responsibilty to defy gender norms. The difference between being GNC and non-binary / trans is gender identity, not gender expression.

But isn't all gender identity a truly personal thing..I am bi and NB.. I don't actually introduce myself like this as I don't need to as I am happy in my skin,at age 57 ,I have had long enough to work it all out .It is about society being able to just accept this but not force feeding it.I don't spend time with people who are obviously anti everything that they are not.
I realise that really,who is to say what is feminine or masculine.