Confused on the concept of non binary

[ireallycantthinkofaname]

Please be nice, i am not the sharpest knife in the box under normal circumstances and I'm running on about 6 hrs sleep over the past week at the minute.....

But something I've been trying and failing to understand re. the concept of 'non binary' in the 'gender movement' (or whatever it is/ought to be called) is that on the one hand, people who subscribe to that philosophy are saying they reject the traditional idea of explicit male/femaleness (because if "trans women are women" then they have swapped for instance). But then if you have 'non binary' individuals isn't that pretty much saying oh yes, actually there is a binary - and some people don't subscribe to it?

I do acknowledge sex =/= gender but not all NB people are intersex/have DSD

<<thoroughly discombobulated>>

Yes exactly. It's a feature.

In the old days we used to call testerosterone "anabolic steroids" and we all knew it was unhealthy to take "anabolic steroids". Now anabolic steroids have a cute new name and the dealers have a much bigger market.

It’s just like all other gender identities. There are people who want to feel “special”.

But there’s also the vulnerable, the body dysmorphic, the ASD, the social contagion-affected, the sexual orientation-conflicted, the traumatised, the assault survivors.

Not only can it not be explained, but while people are trying to explain it the real underlying issues are being ignored and replaced with medical affirmation nonsense.

It's amazing how much gender identities seem to revolve around breasts. For men who say they want to be women it's all about hormones or false breasts. For women who don't want to be women it's all about getting rid of their breasts.

Yes, I was surprised that even in the current ERCC discrimination case, where the manager is a transwoman controversially appointed to a job advertised for women only, the instigator of the events leading to the complaint is a non-binary woman wanting validation for the non-binary identity and wanting never to have their sex referred to at work, even though it is highly relevant to their work.

Non-binary sounds so harmless.

This was supposed to be in response to a certain post, but my thoughts rambled away and it's now an indirect response to several.

A pp has mentioned two categories of nonbinary, in terms of their reasons for identifying as such.

While I agree with their assessment of people wanting to feel special vs more vulnerable people, I have a theory for two more categories. Opt-outers vs revolutionaries.

Opt-outers would probably encompass the more vulnerable group. They reject any sense of feeling like a "man" or a "woman" and from my experience, seem to be quieter. They rename themselves reasonably normal, neutral names like Sam, Charlie or Ash. Easier to blend in, doesn't immediately suggest different gender identity, easier to convince people to use.

The revolutionaries are more to do with throwing out the rulebook, e.g. the bodies we have (see the nullification post) and the names we give ourselves. "Queering" society, so to speak. They reject the conformity of the regular unisex names and go for things like Zeno, Dai and Fox (it would be outing to mention the names I've seen in real life, but these ones have very similar vibes).

I've rewritten this post a bunch of times and I'm still not sure it makes sense, but posting it anyway because maybe it adds something to the discussion?

Edited for formatting.

Something to do with the sexual obsession with breasts? Page 3, cleavage, advertising aimed at men, breast ‘enhancements’ and so on.

So much of the gender industry is tied in to pharmaeceuticals looking for new revenue streams. Gender Ideology is not radical at all - it is totally tied in to consumerism and mainstream values.

what this case is sounding like though, is that The TW CEo of ERCC actively encouraged AB to pursue the problem, in order for them to have a reason to fire the complainant

The way these threads seem to go, is that someone asks what nonbinary is; some people explain; and then a load of people try to argue that they aren’t conscious, don’t know what thinking is, and aren’t able to tell the difference between thinking they’re female and thinking they like pink.

It’s like trying to explain what thinking you’re gay is and people claiming there’s no such thing as thinking you’re gay; you’re either having gay sex or you aren’t, and it’s impossible to identify as gay, lol.

This exactly. I don't feel "like a woman". I feel like me. I may exhibit more masculine or more feminine traits depending on how I'm feeling, but if gender is a construct, I'm just gravitating to emotions or, say, clothing that society has said align to certain sexes. You can't bottle a feeling, for want of a better phrase.

and then a load of people try to argue that they aren’t conscious, don’t know what thinking is, and aren’t able to tell the difference between thinking they’re female and thinking they like pink.

You must be reading different threads to the rest of us!

Have you considered asking non-binary people, or reading their thoughts on the matter?

The OP has already said that she will do so, if you read her previous posts.

aren’t able to tell the difference between thinking they’re female and thinking they like pink.

As a human, you are either male or female.

No thinking required.

“As a human, you are either male or female.
**
No thinking required.”

As a human, you are either having gay sex or you aren’t.

No thinking required?

lol

What are you on about @Peasandsweetcorns ? I get that you think you've landed on a clever gotcha, but in reality your posts are incoherent as your analogy is not applicable.

@Peasandsweetcorns:"It's like ..."

No, it's not at all like thinking you're gay or explaining what that is.

There's a very simple difference. Simple, but important.

If you think you're gay, you are gay, because 'gay' means 'same-sex-attracted', and to think you are attracted is to be attracted.

If you think you are non-binary, however, you are not non-binary, because 'non-binary' means 'neither male nor female' and no human is that.

So "I am gay" must be true if sincere, whereas "I am non-binary" must be false, even if sincere.

See?

For most things, thinking it so doesn't make it so: "I'm cool", "I'm Elvis", "I'm the Queen of Sheba", "I'm non-binary". No you're not.

For just a few things, thinking it so does make it so: "I'm gay". Oh, OK then.

I don’t think there are any “gotchas”. I just find it bemusing that people try not to acknowledge that they think they’re female, or sometimes go further and claim that they can’t understand that thinking they’re female is even possible, while thinking they’re female, lol.

I've got no idea why you think that 'thinking' is required?!

“If you think you're gay, you are gay, because 'gay' means 'same-sex-attracted', and to think you are attracted is to be attracted.”

Plenty of people sincerely think they’re gay, and then later conclude that they aren’t.

When I am sleeping I am still female. If I am in a coma I am still female. In the womb I was still female. When I am dead I will have a female body and will have lived my life as female.

Well, none of the explanations so far have been convincing. As for trying to explain what it means to think you are gay - don't people at least need to find their own sex attractive (and acknowledge that fact) for some significant part of their lives to meaningfully identify as gay? You don't need to have sex to feel attracted but feeling the sexual attraction does put a fairly strong limit on who identifies as gay.

Whereas with non-binary there is nothing different going on either in your head or observable to the outside world, apart from choosing the identity itself.

It's one of the things that makes identity politics so silly. It's become all about the label you choose for yourself, never mind what you say or do or even feel.

Nobody has to have conscious thought about whether they are male or female, it’s a biological fact.

I’m not sure why you’re trying to shoehorn in sexual orientation? Bit of a false dichotomy there.

But the thing is, @Peasandsweetcorns, if a man sincerely and reflectively says, "I think I'm female", that man is making a mistake.

Of course that's different from a man sincerely and reflectively saying, "I think I'm gay", because such a man cannot be making a mistake in saying that.

Do you see this?