Jo Phoenix in Woman’s Hour today (Tuesday)

[crumpet]

There may already be a thread but I didn’t spot one. Wanted to flag this (rather unexpected!) interview.

Womans Hour starts at 10am

I remember Zoe Williams mainly for using her column(s) to have a go at smug, self obsessed parents - until she got pregnant herself and started writing a pregnancy and baby column.

I thought her best was her seminal series, rightly published in a serious newspaper, "Exercises I Have Done".

Literally no reason why my post above should have been deleted, MN? There was nothing abusive in my post. I thought we’d got beyond the days of doing the monitors’ bidding for purely stating facts, and leaving threads like Swiss cheese because women are having their legitimate views deleted? Very ironic, on a thread about Jo Phoenix’s tribunal. Please do explain why my post was deleted and why you think I should not be able to express gender critical opinions?

Was it the phrase “men in frocks” that you are deleting me for, MN? Is this factual statement somehow incendiary? We’ve got a whole forum now where posters are posting regular outright pure antisemitism and racial aggravation these days; but you’re still deleting women for what the courts KEEP establishing are legitimate viewpoints?

Have they emailed? They sometimes do, it's worth clarifying.

Wh Twitter have attempted to gather some balance in their feed today; poor Jameela... only 8 likes.

Hi Asterel,

We're sorry you're disappointed with our moderation - the reason we removed your post was due to the following sentence,

"the sexual kinks of middle-aged men in frocks"

which we consider a sweeping generalisation about the motivation/agenda of transgender women. We do appreciate how challenging this issue is both to discuss but also to moderate and we walk a fine line in order to continue to host the debate.

We do encourage all our posters to share their views with as much civility as possible but appreciate your point about other posts you've read remaining.
It's worth us mentioning we are a Post-moderated site so we don't see all posts which breaks our Talk Guidelines, for antisemitism or other forms of hate speech, unless they're reported to us.

Wanted to drop in my support for Jo in case she happens upon here and say congratulations and awesome courage. The WH interview was great. I've shared it.

@FlissMumsnet I look forward to “sweeping generalisations” becoming part of the moderation policy, no? Most of the entire site would, I fear, disappear - especially if MILs, people who use toilet brushes, wear athleisure, don’t send thank you cards or park really badly were of a delicate kind of identity. Can you imagine the deletions?

It was you, surely, who read into my post the idea that “the sexual kinks of men in frocks” implied something about the “motivation/agenda of transgender women” in general? Which is very telling, because I certainly didn’t say that. YOU interpreted it as a “sweeping generalisation”. I didn’t libel or harass anyone, or say anything offensive.

I REALLY suggest you read the Phoenix judgment. Women are allowed to say gender critical things without being told they are committing a terrible offence. Deleting, censoring and heavy disapproving of women’s legitimate expression of views is getting employers into trouble.

The days of making faces like we’re TERRIBLY BAD for the (gasp!) hate crime of “sweeping generalisations” is drawing to a close. It’s especially ironic on a thread about Jo Phoenix’s case about being harassed and silenced for expressing legitimate opinion. MN needs to be getting a bit more sharp about their moderation policy.

And BTW, @FlissMumsnet, you don’t need to read far on the conflict in the Middle East board to come across not just “sweeping generalisations”, but fact-free, outright misleading nonsense, speculation, lies and recycled propaganda. Rather, finding a post without any of that would be a challenge. Similarly on Harry and Meghan, breaking news stories, celeb threads, school run clique topics —hell, most of the site. Yet we rarely see systematic Swiss-cheese deletions on threads outside this specific topic of gender identity and more specifically, transwomen.

Funny, that.

Jo thank you, you go down in history as one of the amazing women who has fought frontline, protecting the recognition of WOMEN in society. thank you. x

What has happened to Zoe Williams has she gone quite mad? So done with the Guardian and all who sail in her.

shes lost the plot.

Some of the X posts by women academics - including self-defined feminists- are appalling. Extraordinary amounts of smug self satisfied bullying towards Jo Phoenix… without ever giving any explanation of what they think is wrong with what she said. Variations on ‘the racist uncle doesn’t think he’s racist’. These are people who are just not very clever but imagine they are. I’m glad I got out of academia when I did.

Thanks for this thread - will listen on Sounds.

I’ve just read that the OU are “disappointed in the judgment” and looking to appeal. What?! Where’s their humility?

I have written to the Guardian to express my disappointment at this spiteful and Ill informed tweet. I am still a subscriber, on the basis that it might keep me from echo chamber syndrome, but she has seriously erred in posting this nonsense, she admits she hasn’t read the judgement. It is really poor form and it causes the Guardian reputational damage. Im not asking for her to be sacked, but I do think she could be encouraged to read the judgement and to then consider apologising to Jo Phoenix.

I’ve just read that the OU are “disappointed in the judgment” and looking to appeal. What?! Where’s their humility?

I think they said they are considering it, have they said anything more definitive?

..”would consider whether to appeal” - you’re right, sorry!

Sweeping generalisations are part of the Sex & Gender moderation policy
https://www.mumsnet.com/i/trans-rights-moderation-policy

I couldn't care less if someone wears a "frock" or not. It is irrelevant to the redefinition of woman, which is the underlying category error that is causing all this reversing of women's rights and bullying of women for saying sex is real.

About bloody time Woman’s Hour !
Thank you Jo. I heard you speak at Fillia and was moved & angry. Delighted for you & your legal team. Shame on the OU.

Finally a woman's hour I wanted to listen to! Emma did a good job. I've emailed, thank you for the suggestion up thread.

Jo is amazing I'm horrified by what she was put through & in awe of her strength. Thank you Jo 💐

(& "sweary Mary" made me laugh!)

I’ve just listened to the WH interview. Well done Jo you amazing woman, the gardening was money well spent although it’s appalling that it was the only way to bring these horrendous bullies to account.

My blood is boiling at the behaviour of the OU and your colleagues - the fact that many of them knew your background but persisted with their attacks to try to break you is unforgivable. But they couldn’t break you and you WON to all of our benefit. Thank you and very best wishes to you Jo x

Jameela 12 likes; Jo 3.1K

🔥

@asterel, at least fliss quoted your remark 😉