Another GC employment tribunal: Roz Adams vs Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre #3

[nauticant]

Roz Adams was employed by Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre (ERCC) as a counsellor. She is claiming constructive dismissal for Gener Critical (GC) beliefs. The CEO of ERCC is a well known transwoman known for, among other things, controversial "reframe your trauma" remarks.

There's live tweeting from https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets or if Twitter doesn't show the tweets, look at https://nitter.net/tribunaltweets. There's an informative substack here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre

This post explains how to get access to watch the hearing: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4988632-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-2?page=24&reply=132419912

Abbreviations:
J: Employment Judge McFatridge
RA: Roz Adams, the claimant
NC: Naomi Cunningham, barrister for the claimant
ERCC or R: Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, the respondent
DH: David Hay KC, barrister for the respondent
KM: Katy McTernan, ERCC Senior management
MR: Mairi Rosko, ERCC Board Member
MS: Miren Sagues, ERCC Board Member
KH: Katie Horburgh, ERCC Board Member
AB: ERCC staff member (name redacted)
NCi: Nico Ciubotariu, COO of ERCC
MW: Mridul Wadhwa, CEO of ERCC
BP: Beira's Place

RA gave evidence over 15-18 January 2024.

Witnesses:
Nicole Jones (NJ): 18 January 2024 (on behalf of RA)
Mairi Rosko (MR): 19 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
Katy McTernan (referred to both as KT and KM): 22 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
[more to follow]

Thread #1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4985570-another-gc-employment-tribunal-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crsis
Thread #2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4988632-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-2

@lechiffre55 just told me how to get better video so updated joining instructions

Email: [email protected]

Ask for

Public access request RAdam v ERCC 4102236/2023

Mention you want video access, otherwise they'll email you to ask if you want video or attending in person access.

They'll send you an email with a link and a code and with 2 pdfs, one for watching on computer, one for tablets and phones.

Plus, want better video:

As you go through the process of logging into the meeting there's a settings button. Inside the settings there a bandwidth option near the bottom. By default it's set to medium. Setting this to high will give better video quality for those who have complained the video is too poor. It will use up more mobile data the higher it is set. I advise against setting it to ultra, high on home internet or wifi is great.

I was at the Filia conference last year where the magnificent JKR herself turned up and she said since opening they've seen 170 clients. So that's a pretty substantial number self excluding I'd say.

My first ever deletion <proud>

But seriously, for - as far as I can remember - typing words that were said by a barrister, in front of a judge, in a formal tribunal, watched by a number of people as part of open justice?

Remember when HairyLeggedHarpy (?) had a Twitter deletion | report | suspension for quoting Hansard?

Given it is established that being gender critical is an idea worthy of respect in a democracy:

a) How do you prove you are inclusive to women who are happy with gender identity AND to women who are gender criticial?

b) How do you demonstrate that women happy with gender indentity are treated equality to women who are gender critical?

In a workplace which has a culture of putting all emails and questions along these lines in a folder marked hate or starts gross misconduct, sorry misconduct proceedings against them...

Just y'know asking.

How do you mate and produce offspring if you can't recognise sex?

Or do you just experiment and see if something happens and the stork turns up if you are lucky/unlucky (depending on what you want at the time)?

I suppose the point is that you can recognise someone's sex only when they've revealed it to you and given you consent for you to acknowledge what your eyes tell you. Until then you have to force ignorance on yourself.

Well that kind of weapon level idiocy might explain all the affronts to Darwinism that keep popping up in this debate...

Dating must be a thing of great torture in 2024.

Not for pansexuals!

Asking KM to clarify (again) would leave her stuck between a rock and a hard place - offend MW (no) or hammer another nail into ERCC's coffin (yes)

Just had a quick canter through TT for this afternoon. I think the point of DH's final question in re-examination was to counter what KM had said earlier which might suggest she thought people couldn't tell whether AB was a woman or not.

NC The truth is anyone meeting AB would tell at a glance whatever her identity AB is female
KM I don't know
^^

Linked to the belief that homosexuals must not recognise someone's sex but be attracted/date/have sex on the basis of what the person identifies as.

'Learn to cope'. Conversion therapy (actual), and unwanted/unenjoyed sex is seen as a social duty for homosexual women rather than distress a male person by not enacting belief in their chosen identity. Which yes, does require you to subordinate your perceptions, reality, beliefs, feelings, sexuality and self entirely to meet the needs of a more important other.

What were we saying about difficult power and control issues again?

I was at the Filia conference last year where the magnificent JKR herself turned up and she said since opening they've seen 170 clients. So that's a pretty substantial number self excluding I'd say.

That's amazing. Obviously would be preferable that it wasn't necessary, but as it is, especially as ERCC close their lists and won't refer to BP, that's really good to hear.

Asking KM to clarify (again) would leave her stuck between a rock and a hard place - offend MW (no) or hammer another nail into ERCC's coffin (yes)

Exactly.

I do hope that witness doesn't think of getting emotional support rabbits. Refusing to recognize sex in mammals has a lot of consequences, but there it would be fast and expensive.

unwanted/unenjoyed sex is seen as a social duty

Let us recall that dating and sexual preferences are unexamined or unacknowledged bigotry. (Amira Srinivasan's book, The Right to Sex - many threads on MN)

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3232613-London-Review-of-Books-article-Who-has-the-right-to-sex

In which case surely they should be labelling and defining themselves as willing to take women only who share and conform to gender identity beliefs, and do not accept other women into their service? And public funding should reflect this and be shared with a service that does meet the needs of the heretics?

Excellent point. They could advertise themselves as a fully inclusive service, exclusively for women who believe in gender identity, not sex. 😁

It's an interesting thought experiment, isn't it? What would a hypothetical company look like, & how would it operate, if it stayed within the law (Equality Act etc) & took account of both GC/sex realist people & others, equally?

Management would have to be mature, fearless, knowledgable, & good at dealing with conflict & conflicting rights, for a start. That's probably why most don't bother & just expect the women to budge up & stay silent.

Maybe we need to start thinking about what a good future might look like - then maybe we can get there.

Blimey!

I interrupt our scheduled programming to bring you this:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4991660-sara-morrison-vs-belfast-film-festival

Another critical case for you amazing women to follow and get behind 👍

I was really surprised when a friend who I expected to be GC (actually sex realist is a much better term) looked at me like I had sprouted an extra head when I spoke to her about Maya. I have another mutual friend who is a DC in the police, she's very careful not to incriminate herself but I think she feels the same way as us.

I can't help but think that the 1990's prudishness over the word sex has had a massive impact on this situation. If society hadn't ever started to use Gender instead of Sex we wouldn't be so far down this rabbit hole.

Anywho, here is my emotional support horse. I will indeed be bringing her to a tribunal should the need arise.

(thankfully I have a female MD (in the tech industry no less) who doesn't partake in this gender bullshit)

Hmm. A message to me from MNHQ alleging that I have two accounts and breaking the rules and seeking an undertaking that I won't do it again.
Except I haven't got two accounts. How very odd.

I'd say it would be pretty disrespectful if someone couldn't tell I was a woman. Bonkers.

I've got a support flea