Another GC employment tribunal: Roz Adams vs Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre #3

[nauticant]

Roz Adams was employed by Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre (ERCC) as a counsellor. She is claiming constructive dismissal for Gener Critical (GC) beliefs. The CEO of ERCC is a well known transwoman known for, among other things, controversial "reframe your trauma" remarks.

There's live tweeting from https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets or if Twitter doesn't show the tweets, look at https://nitter.net/tribunaltweets. There's an informative substack here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre

This post explains how to get access to watch the hearing: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4988632-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-2?page=24&reply=132419912

Abbreviations:
J: Employment Judge McFatridge
RA: Roz Adams, the claimant
NC: Naomi Cunningham, barrister for the claimant
ERCC or R: Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, the respondent
DH: David Hay KC, barrister for the respondent
KM: Katy McTernan, ERCC Senior management
MR: Mairi Rosko, ERCC Board Member
MS: Miren Sagues, ERCC Board Member
KH: Katie Horburgh, ERCC Board Member
AB: ERCC staff member (name redacted)
NCi: Nico Ciubotariu, COO of ERCC
MW: Mridul Wadhwa, CEO of ERCC
BP: Beira's Place

RA gave evidence over 15-18 January 2024.

Witnesses:
Nicole Jones (NJ): 18 January 2024 (on behalf of RA)
Mairi Rosko (MR): 19 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
Katy McTernan (referred to both as KT and KM): 22 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
[more to follow]

Thread #1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4985570-another-gc-employment-tribunal-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crsis
Thread #2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4988632-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-2

Trump likes to say things that play to one crowd, then say the opposite to play to another crowd. Just to please everyone knowing that his base support won't check what he actually does, they just want to hear him say things they like to hear.

Just saying.

How can you see transphobia if you can't see sex?

Oh wait.

Am very much put in mind of Lord Dorwin (Azimov, Foundation series) whose speech, once analysed, amounted to absolutely nothing.

I live round the corner, if your name's anything to go by. Wonder if that's it - a nearby IP clash?

Loads of people share IP addresses. If you are relying on IP addresses to establish unique identities then you haven't got past the book 'Learn The Internet 2001'

I like your thinking, although a tad early for me, but this is the first I've heard of a flourless cake and chocolate you say? Hmmm not to derail (harrumph as if I would) I'm off for a Google.

Thanks crabby, appreciate it, but I've moved some distance away from my old haunt so it won't be that. Not heard back yet.

Usually ground almonds are used I think. I got it from our local ish bakery. It’s been infused with orange essence and was ridiculously amazing.

So this marvellous worker, and we know she’s marvellous because we’ve heard her speak, and because if there had been anything negative, they would have brought it up, was charged with misconduct and gross misconduct and dragged thru two disciplinary hearings because she asked how to answer a service users enquiry about the sex of her support worker, and expressed concern for the safety of any transman using gents toilets ? I just can’t believe it. At least Jo Phoenix had made some noise, by pointing out the issues, and had some supportive colleagues. This woman had really tried to work within the ethos, whilst also doing her actual job of supporting vulnerable survivors of rape. If it hadn’t been for Beiras Place, Who have clearly helped her regain her confidence, she would have been utterly broken. I am furious for her and for the women of Scotland. Feel concerned that Scottish Government support for gender ideology will obscure the facts.

It's because if you're not 110% compliant, you're a heretic.

There IS no room for questions. Questions are not compliant.

So I’m not sure what RCS is trying to say with this pointless statement?

In the context of the situation in Scotland, particularly women's sector groups reliant on government funding, this is a fairly straight forward statement about the commitment recognised across the UK for women only services, AND the user / client having rights to say what it should be.

All of which contradict MW. You seem to have fallen prey to MW self perceptions. Someone going round saying the sky is red when everyone can see it is blue, doesn't mean it is red.

This is the problem. Bad enough that too many uninformed people are taken in by such gobbly di goop, or are intimidated, but why anyone on FWR would be I dont know.

It's irrelevant what MW thinks or says, because the group that represents RCCs in Scotland is clearly stating that the sector has standards which include providing women only services.

What is happening here is that the media and TRAs have given the impression that everyone thinks like they do.

This is an emperor's new clothes situation.

And as much about how one ego maniac can destroy an organisation, if there isn't proper management.

Many, many voluntary sector groups founder because of one individual.

As with other sectors, NHS, education, Government, why is it that the majority submit or are bullied into staying silent.

That is why this case is so important. Because Roz Adams is showing you can challenge group think. If she wins she not only saves ERC but shows other women you can speak up.

My only problem with the statement from RCS is that if they were aware of what has been happening at ERC, then they shouldn't have allowed them to continue to be member of the Scottish Federation.

Hmm. A message to me from MNHQ alleging that I have two accounts and breaking the rules and seeking an undertaking that I won't do it again.
Except I haven't got two accounts. How very odd.

I wonder if someone, having taken offence over something you wrote, has emailed MNHQ and made such an allegation?

I saw what you wrote and was deleted. Maybe something to do with that. It was a very pertinent observation and that's why I remembered it but I can understand it might have upset any monitors of the thread!

Is it too late to enter KM brain into Paris 2024 for mental gymnastics?

It's irrelevant what MW thinks or says, because the group that represents RCCs in Scotland is clearly stating that the sector has standards which include providing women only services.

Well that's what they want you to think they mean. There is plenty of evidence on these threads that that isn't what they mean, before you start calling posters uninformed who have read and digested it all.

Okay, fair enough

Why did RCS wait until a few days ago to make a statement? It smacks a bit of waiting to see which way the wind was blowing with the Tribunal. Why didn't they make their standards clear earlier, or enforce them? Where is the actual leadership?

Precisely. I'm not even sure if they are clear now. What do they actually mean by women only? I don't know that it's safe to think they mean the same as what the majority of people would understand by that phrase. This is the problem when people start pissing about with language.

@IwantToRetire they include men in their definition of women. So I wouldn't say it's clear at all.

What is clear following this tribunal is they say they offer women only and they even allow women to ask for women only but their definition is based on gender identity not sex.

So a woman can ask for a woman support worker, be given a man she is told is a woman then barred from the service if she won't submit and play along.

Well that's what they want you to think they mean. There is plenty of evidence on these threads that that isn't what they mean, before you start calling posters uninformed who have read and digested it all.

Are you saying that Rape Crisis Scotland have made a statement here or anywhere else that they dont believe in women (biological) only services.

I am talking about in the real world. Discussions on FWR are not, much as we might want them to be, in any way part of how they run themselves. They function in their own world, variously called the voluntary sector, the Third sector.
.

Why did RCS wait until a few days ago to make a statement?

I thought it was issued on the date the tribunal started, but may be wrong.

.
By the way I am not a super fan on RCS, but in terms of how many other women's groups just dont say anything, this is quite bold.

Have you seen a similar statement from for instance Rape Crisis England? They do by the way support women only services but you have to wade through about 2 or 3 documents to get to it.

But. not sure that Rape Crisis in Wales and in Northern Ireland have made any statement in commitment to women only services.

It might have help locally based groups if more women who feel committed to for instance women's sex based rights, had continued to be part of interacting with and supported local groups instead of leaving them to the mercy of local government, central government and the trans ideologues.

No service provider should be the plaything of a lone individual who has is merely using it as a prop to their enlarged ego.

No service provider should be the plaything of a lone individual who has is merely using it as a prop to their enlarged ego.

Lawks, you'll be thinking women have full human rights and are more than bit players and support agents in the lives of Real People next.

Are you saying that Rape Crisis Scotland have made a statement here or anywhere else that they dont believe in women (biological) only services.

They've made clear statements that they believe TWAW. This statement seems like damage limitation, there is extensive discussion of this, and other evidence suggesting they are not being honest, on about thread 1 or 2 when this statement was posted almost immediately after it was issued. Maybe read the thread.

Letter signed by Rape Crisis Scotland, January 2023, which talks about SSE but then goes on to say -

'Violence Against Women (VAW) services in Scotland already operate on the basis of self-ID. Individuals are not required to provide their birth certificates to access services, something that would be hugely harmful. Instead, services have robust safeguarding processes that allow for individuals to be excluded where there are legitimate concerns. Rape crisis services in Scotland have been providing trans inclusive services for 15 years without incident.'

From -

https://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/news/news/a-statement-from-scottish-civil-society-organisations-on-the-uk-governments-intervention-o/

Funding conditions from the Scottish Government -

https://forwomen.scot/29/12/2019/funding-conditions/

ERCC response to GRR bill consultation -

https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/consultation-analysis/2021/08/organisation-responses-to-gender-recognition-consultation-scotland-a-g/documents/edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre/edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre/govscot%3Adocument/Edinburgh%2BRape%2BCrisis%2BCentre.pdf

Rape Crisis services (or the ones funded by the Scottish Government) are on a self ID basis, while erroneously claiming that SSE's will be allowed.

(Edited to remove a double posted link)

This isn't just about Mridul Wadhwa, the rot goes much deeper than that.

@nauticant not panicking or anything but we are at 974 posts...

I'm in England but it feels like ERCC and MW are a microcosm or fractal mirror of Scotland and its politics.