London Review of Books article. Who has the right to sex.

[Meeep]

www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n06/amia-srinivasan/does-anyone-have-the-right-to-sex

Thought this was interesting, and you guys would maybe find it interesting too.

Trans women often face sexual exclusion from lesbian cis women who at the same time claim to take them seriously as women.

But a feminism that totally abjures the political critique of desire is a feminism with little to say about the injustices of exclusion and misrecognition suffered by the women [i.e. transwomen] who arguably need feminism the most.

Once one recognises that trans women are women, complaints about their ‘excessive femininity’ – one doesn’t hear so many complaints about the ‘excessive femininity’ of cis women – begin to look invidious.

Thanks for the quotes as I will have to come back and read properly later

I face sexual exclusion from men who don't fancy me

That is life not injustice

I have been sexually excluded by footballers. I group I am particularly attracted to. I think I need to write a paper about how they are reverse raping me.

I haven’t had time to read the article yet but why are these things always aimed at lesbians.

Why are lesbians criticised for not wanting to have sex with a trans woman when many (the majority?) of heterosexual men wouldn’t want to either?

Sure this is nothing to do with feminism?

A relationship with a lesbian woman would be the ultimate validation for a TIM with AGP I'd have thought.

Despite what TAs say they know lesbians are only same sex attracted ergo if a lesbian will sleep with them then they (TIM) really truly must be a woman.

I would be here all day detailing the sexual exclusion I've experienced in my life - much like the vast majority of people on this planet I would have thought.

No one is owed sex and no one owes it to another, this is really basic stuff and it shouldn't really need to be said it's so obvious.

How are such demands from those within the trans community (and I don't for a minute think that this is everyone under that very large umbrella, just certain individuals) any different conceptually to the stuff the Incel men complain about? Which basically boils down to their belief in their right to have sex with people to whom they are attracted, and if such people do not return the attraction, they are to be shamed.

EchoGives

I don't think they are any different, hence the term transcels to refer to such.

Male sexual entitlement knows no bounds - same as it ever was, incels and transcels are just contemporary spins on it.

Love your user name btw

Well I just read it and I can summarise it for you.

No man is entitled to sex unless they are wearing a dress in which case not only are they entitled to it but you’re a bigot.

The end.

Ps

The patriarchy is bad but we live in it so suck it up and suck dick you boring feminist killjoys.

Yes Teacup that sums it up beautifully...

Trans women often face sexual exclusion from lesbian cis women who at the same time claim to take them seriously as women.

Male people demand the right to define female sexuality in order to get laid. Well, that's a new take on things and lesbians living under the patriarchy have never seen it before. Not.

My take...

If your heterosexuality maintains itself through your transition, your dating pool is likely to reduce drastically. Responsible HCPs involved in your care should have prepared you for this because other people also have stable sexualities which don't include you as a prospective partner.

If you google "dating trans advice" you find loads of articles and forum discussions about transwomen dating lesbians and transmen dating straight women, but far far less about transwomen dating straight men and transmen dating gay men. Funny that

Thank you, Terry I am hoping all the Echos out there wake up and realise Narcissus doesn't give a damn about them.

I feel like I see echoes of "trans" ideology absolutely everywhere at the moment, then I remember that's because the TRAs are all about the patriarchy. And taking on the superficial guise of "woman" doesn't hide the fundamental truth of their misogynist entitlement, their inability to accept female boundaries, and their unwillingness to accept our achievements or to let us have them without moaning about how hard done by they are as a result.

There were a couple of articles on Incel in this morning's Guardian and I just kept thinking, why can't the Guardian's editorial team see the parallels with stuff like the cotton ceiling andTRA's trying to silence women, which they ignore?

(Hairy here, back after sorting out accounts). Teacup has it! She beat me to the TL:DR version.

It's an example of a very clever person turning their considerable intelligence to the task of "having their cake and eating it." They want to be able to say "incels demanding sex = wrong, self-described trans lesbians demanding sex = perfectly okay." To do this, she's forced to come up with a totally spurious analogy ("refusing to share your vulva with be-penised people if you are a lesbian is like someone's pre-schooler refusing to share sandwiches with the one disabled kid in the class when they happily share sandwiches with everyone else").

Then she tops it off with a message of "you must be sex positive or you are a Victorian prude. I will soften the blow of this judgement on your character failings by pretending to pay lip-service to the second wave feminists who drew attention to the difficulty of framing genuine consent within a patriarchal society, but then double down on my original assertion: if you don't suck dick you're a prude." Just to make the issue clearer, she makes sure she throws in the obligatory "sex work is work" claim (ignoring the fact that no other job includes a risk of rape, assault and murder over 20 times the average of the female population as a whole).

It's a very slick piece of extremely dishonest intellectual sophistry.

But a feminism that totally abjures the political critique of desire is a feminism with little to say about the injustices of exclusion and misrecognition suffered by the women [i.e. transwomen] who arguably need feminism the most.

What? Does this person actually talk like this? I'm going to have a bash at translating this into comprehensible layman's terms:

'Women who won't bow down to political sacred cows are ignoring the feelings of male born people who want to be seen as women and so want to be the priority of those women'.

No, sad feelings are not the responsibility of women to fix with sex. Sex is not an entitlement. Women are people with the right to state their own boundaries and sexual preferences. Those preferences can be exclusive without that woman being in need of a ducking stool.

Honestly, the incel crap really confirms why so many of the girls from my year in school grew up to be happy, successful single women with a good vibrator. What masochist would want to sign up for this bullshit and live with it?

But feminism that rejects the patriarchy is feminism that denies sex to the most in need women of all, men.

I don’t care not one jot about your orgasms.

Written on every page until the end.

Thank you Teacup, that makes the translation even simpler.

'you exercising your right to say no/have bodily autonomy/be treated as a human being' is mean'.

To which the answer is: 'I believe there's a grip shop over the road'.

It’s all so incredibly Emperor’s new clothes.

Can I just say.

Fuck this.

As a woman who’s sexuality has been moulded and castrated by the patriarchy this makes me very angry.

I don’t see society falling over itself to make sure women are allowed to develop their desires away from the male gaze.

Men’s orgasms must always and forever be at the forefront of women’s priorities even when trying to liberate yourself from men who want you to prioritise their orgasms.

Seriously, why AREN’T they complaining about straight men who don’t want to have sex with someone with a penis? Why is it always the women in the wrong?

(Rhetorical, obviously)

Yes EchoGives I agree that Narcissus can do one!

One of the most depressing things about all this TA bs is that once you have your eyes opened you start joining other dots and begin to see just how much misogyny there is out there.

Don't get me wrong I always knew it was there, but I thought things were getting better. Now it very much feels to me that they're getting a whole lot worse.

I find it hard to deal with much of the time and am so glad I discovered the MN FWR boards as they help me to feel like I'm not the only one who can see the bs for what it is.

Don't get me wrong I always knew it was there, but I thought things were getting better. Now it very much feels to me that they're getting a whole lot worse.

Yes I feel exactly the same.