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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another GC employment tribunal. Roz Adams vs Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre #2

995 replies

nauticant · 19/01/2024 12:59

Claiming constructive dismissal for GC beliefs.

ERCC CEO is a well known transwoman know for controversial "reframe your trauma" remarks.

There was live tweeting from twitter.com/tribunaltweets or if Twitter doesn't show the tweets, look at https://nitter.net/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:
J: Employment Judge McFatridge
RA: Roz Adams, the claimant
NC: Naomi Cunningham, barrister for the claimant
R or ERCC: the Respondent, Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre
DH: David Hay KC, barrister for the respondent
KM: Katy McTernan, ERCC Senior management
MR: Mairi Rosko, ERCC Board Member
MS: Miren Sagues, ERCC Board Member
KH: Katie Horburgh, ERCC Board Member
AB: ERCC staff member (name redacted)
NCi: Nico Ciubotariu, COO of ERCC
MW: Mridul Wadhwa, CEO of ERCC
BP: Beira's Place

Witnesses:
Nicole Jones (NJ): 18 January 2024
Mairi Rosko (MR): 19 January 2024
[more to follow]

Thread #1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4985570-another-gc-employment-tribunal-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crsis

OP posts:
Thread gallery
42
RethinkingLife · 20/01/2024 17:16

Women's charities will happily recruit males to increase their diversity score but fail to recruit women from groups most likely to use / need a service like this and will happily throw the most vulnerable under the bus because they are unable to express their views when these are the women who are most need of advocates.

As ever, the Deptford Project and Lucy Mcdonagh's experience come to mind.

https://www.feministcurrent.com/2018/03/23/leftist-women-uk-refuse-accept-labours-attempts-silence-critiques-gender-identity/

https://web.archive.org/web/20180315031511/https:/twitter.com/LucyLoveslife1/status/973852316787933184

And who were the academics who worked with a WC scholar but mocked her? Actually publishing their demeaning opinions of her scholarship?

Leftist women in the UK refuse to accept Labour's attempts to silence critiques of gender identity

Working class women and Labour Party members are incensed at being harassed and silenced in their attempts to discuss gender identity. But they are fighting back.

https://www.feministcurrent.com/2018/03/23/leftist-women-uk-refuse-accept-labours-attempts-silence-critiques-gender-identity

RedToothBrush · 20/01/2024 17:30

RethinkingLife · 20/01/2024 17:16

Women's charities will happily recruit males to increase their diversity score but fail to recruit women from groups most likely to use / need a service like this and will happily throw the most vulnerable under the bus because they are unable to express their views when these are the women who are most need of advocates.

As ever, the Deptford Project and Lucy Mcdonagh's experience come to mind.

https://www.feministcurrent.com/2018/03/23/leftist-women-uk-refuse-accept-labours-attempts-silence-critiques-gender-identity/

https://web.archive.org/web/20180315031511/https:/twitter.com/LucyLoveslife1/status/973852316787933184

And who were the academics who worked with a WC scholar but mocked her? Actually publishing their demeaning opinions of her scholarship?

That's the perfect example. Lily Madigan showed the point really well.

Remember the narrative of how gender critical views are related to right wing religious conservativism?

Any yet one of the first big push backs against gender ideology in the UK was actually WITHIN the Labour Party and was left by the some of the most leftie elements within that.

These were working class women whose voices were being sidelined by middle class males.

It really shows up differences between US and UK politics too. But social media is so dominated by the US this is lost and it's become a smear to use against gender critical women even though it really doesn't reflect the history in the UK. (I note here that in the UK we are not seeing any political party really pushing the gender critical agenda, which is happening in the US)

There's also a certain parallel with Black Lives Matter in the US tbh. It was at heart initially a Marxist organisation focused more on the socio-economic injustices faces by black people. But socialism in the US is a dirty word because of the historical association with the cold war and communism. So when it made contact with the Democratic Party there was a shift from economic policy to identity policies and it was almost co-opted by the middle classes which rather undermined the economic part of its agenda and fundamentally changed the message. This has led to a backlash amongst working class white communities in the US pushing them towards the Right which is filling this void in US main stream politics.

GCITC · 20/01/2024 17:40

howonearthdidwegethere · 20/01/2024 11:03

Also worth reading is the ruling in this tribunal which came out in 2022.

Kathleen Graham vs Rape Crisis Scotland

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/61d4232fe90e071962ef0ee5/Ms_K_Graham_v_Rape_Crisis_Scotland_-4102730.2020-_Final.pdf

This is absolutely astounding.

Another GC employment tribunal. Roz Adams vs Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre #2
LoobiJee · 20/01/2024 17:46

Boiledbeetle · 20/01/2024 13:38

Well worth spending the time to read all 55 pages.

The treatment of the claimant by the management of Rape Crisis Scotland is awful, and the level of non investigation done will not surprise anyone!

Thanks for the link. Blimey.

For those who don’t have time to read the whole report, I would recommend reading pages 17 to 20, to give you a flavour.

Appalonia · 20/01/2024 17:49

Boiledbeetle · 20/01/2024 00:35

Email: [email protected]

Ask for

Public access request RAdam v ERCC 4102236/2023

They'll send you a link and code

Thank you!

PronounssheRa · 20/01/2024 17:56

Absolutely red it was the madigan debacle specifically what happened to Anne Ruzylo that brought my attention to what was happening.

Sisterpita · 20/01/2024 17:59

@GCITC that is awful.

I do think with missing emails, what’s apps, phones in the sea, changing phones etc. there needs to be a penalty of some sort e.g. if you have destroyed/lost the evidence we will assume it weakens your case.

There should also be a requirement, with heavy fines, for public sector and most particularly MPs, SMPs and other elected officials to ensure phoned and emails are captured either by back up to a secure server/cloud.

Boiledbeetle · 20/01/2024 18:10

Appalonia · 20/01/2024 17:49

Thank you!

Should add, mention you want video access, otherwise they'll email you to ask if you want video or attending in person access.

LaviniasBigBloomers · 20/01/2024 19:00

RedToothBrush · 20/01/2024 16:54

The HR company advising here needs to pick up quite a large portion of blame but ultimately, I think this is group-think. When we talk about hiring for diversity thisis what we actually mean: diversity ofthoughtthat doesn't assume the whole world thinks in the way we think.

Absolu-fucking-letly.

Trevor Phillips, former head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission has made this exact point about how we often miss the point because we become so focused on certain things to the exclusion of others so we ultimately miss the point about diversity.

He did a documentary for the BBC on diversity and said that one of the flaws in focusing on race has been to miss socioeconomic status. Keep in mind, he himself is black.

His point was that the BBC had done very well at recruiting ethnic minorities but this had been very much at the expense of white, working class males with middle class minorities being more likely to get jobs. What they hadn't managed to tackle was how many staff were privately educated. In practice instead of broadening diversity, it was arguable that actually this approach had been narrowing diversity because staff had a similar upbringing and this meant that the BBC was blind to more working class viewpoints and wasn't representing poorer communities well on numerous levels. His point was it was actively harming social mobility and aspirations of certain communities.

There's clearly an issue within the charity sector about a lack of diversity of political identities, particularly in certain sections. We are seeing a whole bunch of people who have exactly the same political views running certain charities which has massive implications. There was a big thing about the National Trust along these lines not long ago, with there being a massive push on social media to get members to keep out certain people because they 'had the wrong political views'.

It's fundamentally damaging if it's a charity that's supposed to serve a broad spectrum of society. We absolutely should be having a broad width of political views, socio-economic background, age and professional experience with those who run a charity.

What strikes me about the list of trustees here is the apparent lack of management experience - which will include people management and understanding of HR skills combined with a couple of very dominant older characters within the charity supposedly being balanced by a lot of very inexperienced young people. There's a massive lack of understanding of GDPR and understanding HR (we made an admin error over gross misconduct and misconduct FFS. How in god's name do a) you manage this b) think this a suitable defence/ justification in an employment tribunal!!!)

That's not balance, thats a massive imbalance. I note particularly that it's much harder for a group of young people lacking in experience to stand up and robustly challenge older dominant characters. You really have to have some guts and conviction to do that. It's HARD. Managing people older than you generally isn't an easy task.

Not only that, but due to the way that trustees are appointed you are much more likely to see groupthink being deliberately established in order to reinforce an agenda. The whole grapevine thing and how there are activist cliques makes this a real weak point. Indeed if you have a dominant character within the charity, it effectively is possible to encourage the appointment of trustees who pretty much sit, nod and smile at what you are doing and it's only when the shit hits the fan that the lack of accountability this creates becomes very apparent. A charity which is TWAW is absolutely going to appoint trustees who are TWAW and avoid anyone who is known to be gender critical because they don't want the boat rocked, which is what trustees SHOULD be doing.

Instead because of diversity training which focuses on things like race, gender identity, sexuality and sex they can instead go - look we ticked all the boxes whilst simultaneously appointing a bunch of middle class people who all share the same opinions and have similar life experiences.

The key point is what previous posters have said - balance. But diversity training is arguably not doing this and is blind to this because it's not looking at the whole picture.

We are seeing this pattern in media, in politics and the charity sector it's everywhere.

I'd argue that all this diversity training misses the key point of ALL equality and human rights principles which is to balance the needs and wants of ALL parties. Instead it creates this hierarchy of repression which is dumb as fuck and doesn't actually reflect jack shit. It overwhelmingly harms the lowest socio-economic groups.

Women's charities will happily recruit males to increase their diversity score but fail to recruit women from groups most likely to use / need a service like this and will happily throw the most vulnerable under the bus because they are unable to express their views when these are the women who are most need of advocates.

The truth in journalism and in human rights is to look not for what is said but for the gaps in what is said. Those glaring silences and lack of voices are where the biggest stories are found, the biggest issues lie and where the most vulnerable are stuck. They are never the noisy groups on social media...

Excellent points all. See also education - the women's rights sector has had to professionalise, partly in terms of accessing funding, partly because it's seen as the right thing to do, which means you have services stuffed with gender studies degrees and phd's and an awful lot of reflective practice. I've spoken to more than one DV survivor who would be IMMENSE in a support worker role but because they don't have all the qualifications (often because of the abuse they've suffered, think that one through too...) they can't/don't apply for roles.

That's not strictly linked to boards and trustees but further down the line, these women are lost to the movement.

(I always feel like such a dinosaur talking about 'the movement' but hey ho.)

Karensalright · 20/01/2024 20:16

Hiya there are local women”s agencies out there who grow their own future support workers, by way of firstly volunteering, which in my experience produced the best most conscientious, and dedicated support staff.

My agency completely avoided advertising during the periods of student graduation.

I have checked the Women’s Aid agency i developed and it is intact, biological women only, and have some of the trustees who were there before me. It is thriving and a sector leader.

I think it would be great if the lovely folk here all looked at the women’s services in their area to see if they are in fact biological women only.

And if they are not then i would, if i were you, ask them to explain themselves.

It is usually to do with commissioning and funding.

There is no reason whatsoever that the voluntary sector cannot develop specialist services for males only, whatever that need might be (there is a male SV project in my area.

a small but maybe not insignificant activity. We could i guess gather data and responses although i don't know given anonymity how we could do this.

I think i could volunteer my PM to gather this????

Justabaker · 20/01/2024 20:21

@LaviniasBigBloomers
(I always feel like such a dinosaur talking about 'the movement' but hey ho.)
My mother was a genuine bra burning second wave feminist in the 60s and 70s. I remember when she got her first credit card in her own name, she sat down and cried. She caught my sister and I with a copy of Cosmopolitan when we were 12, 13. Took it away and burned it. Told us that magazines like that would make us hate our bodies and ourselves. That they were sent by the devil.
I'm 64 now.

It hurts me to write it but she was right about everything. Every. Damn. Thing.
And she would take the gains that gender ideology has made personally. And that's why I'm here. Because I hear her saying to me 'what did you do in gender wars'?
And I know I need to do something.

Karensalright · 20/01/2024 20:31

@Justabaker you just gave me goose bumps and a tear much love xx

LaviniasBigBloomers · 20/01/2024 20:34

Good on ya sister @Justabaker and may your mother rest in power.

WFTCHTJ · 20/01/2024 20:47

Boiledbeetle · 20/01/2024 08:46

Waiting, In my just awake state... I think he was asking why they hadn't given Roz information on what exactly they were going to discuss in the disciplinary meeting, she just got told there was a problem with some of her comments. I can't right now remember exactly what he asked, I was more struck by the tone in which he said it. It was obvious he wasnt impressed with the witness.

Thanks Boiled. That makes sense. It's hardly good practice to ambush people with the details of the allegations against them once they're in the disciplinary, so I can see why he'd take a dim view of that.

UtopiaPlanitia · 20/01/2024 21:03

LaviniasBigBloomers · 20/01/2024 19:00

Excellent points all. See also education - the women's rights sector has had to professionalise, partly in terms of accessing funding, partly because it's seen as the right thing to do, which means you have services stuffed with gender studies degrees and phd's and an awful lot of reflective practice. I've spoken to more than one DV survivor who would be IMMENSE in a support worker role but because they don't have all the qualifications (often because of the abuse they've suffered, think that one through too...) they can't/don't apply for roles.

That's not strictly linked to boards and trustees but further down the line, these women are lost to the movement.

(I always feel like such a dinosaur talking about 'the movement' but hey ho.)

You’re quite right Lavinia; nowadays the NGO/Third Sector is basically another branch of the Professional Managerial Class so it’s full of naice middle-class people with naice establishment beliefs.

GCITC · 20/01/2024 22:30

WFTCHTJ · 20/01/2024 20:47

Thanks Boiled. That makes sense. It's hardly good practice to ambush people with the details of the allegations against them once they're in the disciplinary, so I can see why he'd take a dim view of that.

Got a busy weekend but when I get a minute I will try to remember what was said, but certainly the way he spoke was the way you speak to child after you've asked them to put their socks on at least 5 times.

Hedgehogdetective · 21/01/2024 03:43

Sorry if my contributions to this thread seem random and irrelevant.

but I think it’s important to make some points about MW:

When they attend events or meetings they always centre their contribution around themselves, eg “I’m a trans migrant woman of colour”. It’s like an equalities bingo card. Note they never say they’re disabled or working class (they’re very well off). How many women go to events and list off these characteristics? It’s definitely an ego thing because other people in the equalities sector do the same (mainly the trans individuals).

they make statements about violence against trans women without providing any evidence or research, it’s always “trans women experience so much violence” okay what a vague statement to make. But the thing I find is MW says these comments with a loud confident voice and people feel compelled to listen and are captured by what they say. But if you look behind the bravado there is no substance to what they say. It’s anecdotal. But it’s taken as fact and worth listening to and making changes to services etc because it’s so convincing. Changes to services should be based on evidence, not one persons experience or opinions.

MW has to be the centre of attention. They wear saris and get funny looks and think it must be cos I’m trans! No it’s because you live in Scotland and you’re dressing different from the norm. But views the funny looks as “literal violence against trans people”.

MW provides counselling to people but has no counselling qualifications. That’s a major red flag and I don’t know how they get away with that.

MW has worked in third sector organisations where the focus is on women being victims. MW has worked their way up through these organisations despite having no qualifications. It’s all due to the bravado.

it might sound daft but they aren’t dissimilar to Donald trump. He made controversial statements and people said he surely can’t get elected saying those things. But he did. MW definitely has a following and it’s a cult of personality. No one will want to go against MW because they know they’ll be labelled transphobic. It’s the ideal shield to hide behind.

heartofglass23 · 21/01/2024 06:06

He is like Donald trump!

ArabellaScott · 21/01/2024 08:27

Yes. Who see themselves as the moral arbiters who Know Best.

I know a lot of these people. They are often horribly sneery towards the people they are ostensibly supposed to be helping, sometimes because the subjects stubbornly refuse to accept what said Good Person knows is best for them.

They create a bubble of similarly minded people and all reinforce each others ideas, funded very handsomely from the tax money of the great unwashed. While making prim moral pronouncements on said Unwashed masses.

There's a great article on Scottish third sector, I'll see if I can find it.

ArabellaScott · 21/01/2024 08:38

I cant seem to find it - it was a Robin McAlpine article. But he writes extensively on this issue and is really worth reading.

https://robinmcalpine.org/but-how/

But How? | RobinMcAlpine.org

https://robinmcalpine.org/but-how

Froodwithatowel · 21/01/2024 08:59

UtopiaPlanitia · 20/01/2024 21:03

You’re quite right Lavinia; nowadays the NGO/Third Sector is basically another branch of the Professional Managerial Class so it’s full of naice middle-class people with naice establishment beliefs.

Absolutely. And it's a group who are very traditional in many ways about pushing out any oiks who are not The Right Sort and basically not of their gang. They are quickly got rid of.

Which effectively ends diversity in that group, or any connection to reality beyond that group. Everyone thinks the same and talks the same and says the words and writes the bids ticking all the boxes. And they're all made out of ticky tacky and they all look the same.

Froodwithatowel · 21/01/2024 09:05

Hedgehog your direct experience is anecdotal but extremely valuable, in that multiple reports have now commented that the voices of service users and their experiences are just never recorded. Only those of the service providers, who have agendas of their own and those being imposed upon them.

RethinkingLife · 21/01/2024 09:30

When they attend events or meetings they always centre their contribution around themselves, eg “I’m a trans migrant woman of colour”

I envy you if this is unusual. "I'm [X], my pronouns are [several]. I live with ADHD, this may manifest as taking thought breaks. If I delay before responding, please don't speak as it interrupts my thought and may trigger mutism. I have rejection sensitivity dysphoria so consider how you frame responses to me." and it goes on. Usually, a couple of (mental) health conditions and maybe even a physical description: "I have [Y]-length, [colour] hair, with [X]-coloured eyes".

Add in the number of people who tell you about the land on which their institution stands, the displaced people, various historical treaties…it genuinely cuts down on any meeting time if there are several speakers. (I do mean virtual as well as in-person.)

Context: healthcare; charities and voluntary organisations; training or public events for all of these; academic events for these; working group meetings for all these.

Datun · 21/01/2024 09:35

RethinkingLife · 21/01/2024 09:30

When they attend events or meetings they always centre their contribution around themselves, eg “I’m a trans migrant woman of colour”

I envy you if this is unusual. "I'm [X], my pronouns are [several]. I live with ADHD, this may manifest as taking thought breaks. If I delay before responding, please don't speak as it interrupts my thought and may trigger mutism. I have rejection sensitivity dysphoria so consider how you frame responses to me." and it goes on. Usually, a couple of (mental) health conditions and maybe even a physical description: "I have [Y]-length, [colour] hair, with [X]-coloured eyes".

Add in the number of people who tell you about the land on which their institution stands, the displaced people, various historical treaties…it genuinely cuts down on any meeting time if there are several speakers. (I do mean virtual as well as in-person.)

Context: healthcare; charities and voluntary organisations; training or public events for all of these; academic events for these; working group meetings for all these.

Edited

Dear god.

Hedgehogdetective · 21/01/2024 09:39

You’re right it’s become common, for me it’s the fact MW will say it when it’s not relevant, eg instead of using their platform to raise awareness of issues around rape, they talk about themselves

I wonder if their job description said “raise awareness of trans issues” / talk about yourself all day (obviously not because the other women who applied wouldn’t have been trans…)