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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another GC employment tribunal. Roz Adams vs Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre #2

995 replies

nauticant · 19/01/2024 12:59

Claiming constructive dismissal for GC beliefs.

ERCC CEO is a well known transwoman know for controversial "reframe your trauma" remarks.

There was live tweeting from twitter.com/tribunaltweets or if Twitter doesn't show the tweets, look at https://nitter.net/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:
J: Employment Judge McFatridge
RA: Roz Adams, the claimant
NC: Naomi Cunningham, barrister for the claimant
R or ERCC: the Respondent, Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre
DH: David Hay KC, barrister for the respondent
KM: Katy McTernan, ERCC Senior management
MR: Mairi Rosko, ERCC Board Member
MS: Miren Sagues, ERCC Board Member
KH: Katie Horburgh, ERCC Board Member
AB: ERCC staff member (name redacted)
NCi: Nico Ciubotariu, COO of ERCC
MW: Mridul Wadhwa, CEO of ERCC
BP: Beira's Place

Witnesses:
Nicole Jones (NJ): 18 January 2024
Mairi Rosko (MR): 19 January 2024
[more to follow]

Thread #1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4985570-another-gc-employment-tribunal-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crsis

OP posts:
Thread gallery
42
guinnessguzzler · 20/01/2024 11:55

For me, the key thing about a Board, like most things in life, is balance. So there is room for people with less experience who want to learn and grow as long as that is balanced by the rest of the Board. I'd say you also want to have a few more on Board than you think you need, as there will always be someone who needs to step away at short notice due to unforeseen circumstances. So succession planning is vital and ideally before recruiting you would undertake some kind of skills analysis and then recruit to the gaps. I agree that there are charlatans out there, only interested in what they can get, but when I think of the many Boards I have known and loved over the years, they are few and far between and you can generally spot them a mile off. Mind you, I had Nathan Sparling's number based on one promo / gushing piece in TFN well before any of the dodginess came out so I do somewhat pride myself on being able to spot a wrong 'un 😜

In terms of ERCC, it's not so much a few people leaving at the same time, it's the lack of length of service / continuity in the Board as it does look like none of them have served for long. As far as I can see from Companies House the two longest serving Trustees were appointed in 2021, which is definitely not ideal in terms of continuity. The problem is, the way ERCC is now, no one who meets the criteria to be a good Trustee would even consider getting on Board, and it's been like that for some time. I've taken on Board and Chair positions in difficult circumstances with my eyes wide open but ERCC is a whole different level and I can't see how they could ever recruit decent Trustees now.

DerekFaker · 20/01/2024 11:58

Sorry, I somehow managed to miss a whole page of discussion.

lordloveadog · 20/01/2024 11:58

On charity trustees - a relative of mine was in demand as a trustee after he retired and ended up helping several charities.

He was an accountant and had been a senior director of a UK household name company.

The other charity trustee I know was a director of a major bank, among other roles, and again is now retired. Oh, and a younger one with a science PhD who works in the City.

That's the kind of calibre and experience serious charities look for, even for activities which are not nearly as sensitive as a rape victims' support centre.

The line up (or rather hokey cokey in and out dance line) supposed to keep MW in check is a joke.

lordloveadog · 20/01/2024 12:02

Floisme and Rainbow please do volunteer! Charities really need you. Life experience, professional experience, especially on financial side.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/01/2024 12:05

The line up (or rather hokey cokey in and out dance line) supposed to keep MW in check is a joke.

Yes, exactly. They all want to push their various agendas as well, I imagine.

guinnessguzzler · 20/01/2024 12:08

Yes agee, @Floisme and @Rainbowshit I would encourage anyone to consider becoming a Trustee. If you are in Scotland you will likely also find local Trustee opportunities listed with your local Volunteer Centre / Third Sector Interface. You can do some background checks (and ask relevant questions) in terms of Accounts, any tribunals, any inquiries or reports from OSCR etc to give you an idea of what you are going in to. And if it is local you can probably get an idea of any issues, reputation etc from people you know. The sector needs good people willing to ask the right questions!

LoobiJee · 20/01/2024 13:06

“For me, the key thing about a Board, like most things in life, is balance. So there is room for people with less experience who want to learn and grow as long as that is balanced by the rest of the Board. I'd say you also want to have a few more on Board than you think you need, as there will always be someone who needs to step away at short notice due to unforeseen circumstances. So succession planning is vital and ideally before recruiting you would undertake some kind of skills analysis and then recruit to the gaps. “

Completely agree with Guinness on this. Usually on a board you’d be looking for one or maybe two younger trustees as a balance to the fact that those with more experience and skills are likely be older.

According to that tweet, iirc, they’ve got 7 trustees. Four (= more than half) are under 25. One trustee is a student. One trustee has a job title which suggests they are the most junior person in their team. It’s possible that the student brings experience from volunteering on the student union rape crisis helpline if they have one. The other junior volunteer may bring survivor perspective. Both valuable perspectives, if so. That leaves five trustees to contribute expertise in finance, HR, governance, etc. Realistically the other two under 25s are unlikely to have that. The trustee witness brings fund raising experience. So that leaves two trustees to cover HR, finance, governance.

I think in some sectors people volunteering for trustee roles don’t appreciate the legal and financial responsibilities it carries, and think they are just there to turn up and share helpful ideas, not realising that they are there to make sure the place doesn’t go bust or do anything illegal.

And on that point, whilst I agree with encouraging women to get involved, I’d also strongly urge you to make sure you understand what you are letting yourself in for beforehand.

Hedgehogdetective · 20/01/2024 13:18

I think MW feels untouchable because if they do get fired they’ll claim it’s discrimination based on them being trans. So organisations are too scared to fire them.

Justabaker · 20/01/2024 13:19

'strongly urge you to make sure you understand what you are letting yourself in for beforehand'
@LoobiJee - this is great advice. If you're doing the role properly it requires real time commitment, there's a lot to keep on top of and there are legal and financial responsibilities.

I turned down an appointment when they couldn't tell me who provided their officers and directors insurance. But 'we're sure have some'.

FFS

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/01/2024 13:20

Yes I can imagine that @Hedgehogdetective

RethinkingLife · 20/01/2024 13:21

And on that point, whilst I agree with encouraging women to get involved, I’d also strongly urge you to make sure you understand what you are letting yourself in for beforehand.

Post-Grenfell, there was considerable talk about increasing the (vicarious) legal liabilities of trustees which would make some posts very undesirable. Does anyone else recall that and the outcome?

Justabaker · 20/01/2024 13:21

Hedgehogdetective · 20/01/2024 13:18

I think MW feels untouchable because if they do get fired they’ll claim it’s discrimination based on them being trans. So organisations are too scared to fire them.

Exactly on target.

I was reflecting on how they get MW to go. I cannot see any of the trustees that would have the energy, patience, knowledge and determination to undertake this task.

Will ERCC just 'implode'? Who can they get to join the trustees? I would guess that even the handmaiden crowd will be edging away.

LoobiJee · 20/01/2024 13:36

“I turned down an appointment when they couldn't tell me who provided their officers and directors insurance. But 'we're sure have some'. “

😲

Boiledbeetle · 20/01/2024 13:38

howonearthdidwegethere · 20/01/2024 11:03

Also worth reading is the ruling in this tribunal which came out in 2022.

Kathleen Graham vs Rape Crisis Scotland

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/61d4232fe90e071962ef0ee5/Ms_K_Graham_v_Rape_Crisis_Scotland_-4102730.2020-_Final.pdf

Well worth spending the time to read all 55 pages.

The treatment of the claimant by the management of Rape Crisis Scotland is awful, and the level of non investigation done will not surprise anyone!

Chariothorses · 20/01/2024 13:39

This is very much due to failures by the government and Charity Commission too. The CC have responsibility to regulate charities, and have received various complaints about 'by women for women' charities who have opened their services to 'anyone who identifies as a woman' -even when evidence shows this excludes their target beneficiaries. Yet the CC is failing to intervene. And so have the government eg to ensure that council funders keep female services single sex (Brighton and Bristol are further examples where all women's services are required to be mixed sex or get defunded).

apples24 · 20/01/2024 13:42

LoobiJee · 20/01/2024 09:09

What makes a good trustee:
“Trustees have expert knowledge
- experts in their field
- have relevant industry experience
- may have been trustees before,
- held prominent positions in the charitable sector,
- worked in the field.
- well recognised in their profession “

Four ERCC’s trustees are age 25 and under.

Occupations: include: student sabbatical officer; democracy assistant.

Have these trustees got any self-awareness at all? It's beyond shocking, really a bloody joke.

I have wondered about applying to become a trustee in the past and have always thought I'm not yet senior/experienced enough.... For context, I'm a chartered accountant having several years of experience in external and internal audit and most recently in risk management... Now work as a senior manager leading a team of ~25... So certainly could contribute to things like audit committee etc!

LaviniasBigBloomers · 20/01/2024 14:51

thanks @Justabaker for your response. I would disagree that 'youth' by itself is an issue and really if any women on this thread are reading and thinking they're too young/don't have enough experience to reflect on whether that's true or whether that's the patriarchy telling you you're not good enough. We know that women frequently underplay their competence and capability. Feminist organisations need young women; age is also a protected characteristic. There is also an organisation in Scotland that helps younger women get these sort of roles and supports them while carrying out their duties, by the way.

It can also be very easy to get a bit of a car crash when you do a bunch of recruitment and end up with people who then run out of term all at the same time. It's not best practice but it is real-life. A limit of two three year terms is very common. And given how hard it is to recruit busy women to trustee roles, I don't think it's a stretch that those women then don't hold any other voluntary or non-exec roles.

But clearly the Board hasn't done its job very well here, so what do I know? I think trustee-ing is really difficult and often quite boring. People are attracted to it to build CVs yes, but also because they want to make a difference. To then find that the 'difference' is reading the balance sheet and chairing the disciplinary panel: probably not quite the difference they intended to make. The HR company advising here needs to pick up quite a large portion of blame but ultimately, I think this is group-think. When we talk about hiring for diversity this is what we actually mean: diversity of thought that doesn't assume the whole world thinks in the way we think.

LaviniasBigBloomers · 20/01/2024 14:53

To add: MW was well-known when hired, it's a massive assumption to assume the board will want rid, even now.

Sisterpita · 20/01/2024 15:02

LaviniasBigBloomers · 20/01/2024 14:53

To add: MW was well-known when hired, it's a massive assumption to assume the board will want rid, even now.

Rightly or wrongly these days and in this type of situation the key decision makers may actually be the media and the public. They may make it untenable for MW to continue so they resign.

The question will be how the media report this. Remember a pair of pink leggings managed to do more than hours of Scottish Government Committee meetings to raise awareness of rapists being housed in Women’s prisons. It also made Nicola Sturgeon look like a rabbit in the headlights trying not to say Isla Bryson was a man, she ended up creating a 3rd sex rapist.

LarkLane · 20/01/2024 15:37

LaviniasBigBloomers · 20/01/2024 14:53

To add: MW was well-known when hired, it's a massive assumption to assume the board will want rid, even now.

I agree. MW has got the fan Board he wanted.

PronounssheRa · 20/01/2024 16:24

MR has locked down their tweets (shocked face), I'm surprised it took this long.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 20/01/2024 16:32

DerekFaker · 20/01/2024 10:42

Has this been posted yet?

https://twitter.com/hightreebud/status/1747324673405174184?t=mMz1uJ__PxKgME_nx6j3Wg&s=19

"For those horrified about this you might like to read about a 2019 meeting between women and Rape Crisis Scotland seeking a solution that would allow single-sex provision. It was submitted to the Committee looking at the GRR Bill.

See p13-16 and 47-53."
parliament.scot/-/media/files/…

https://t.co/vGgRCtdCTF

That is an excellent report! Measured, knowledgeable, talks about different ways to offer inclusion for transwomen, some ways do support single sex provision for women though some don't, and lays it all out so clearly. Relevant to much more than just GRR.

PronounssheRa · 20/01/2024 16:36

ERCC have also locked down.

Bet those trustees aren't having a restful weekend.

Another GC employment tribunal. Roz Adams vs Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre #2
RedToothBrush · 20/01/2024 16:54

The HR company advising here needs to pick up quite a large portion of blame but ultimately, I think this is group-think. When we talk about hiring for diversity thisis what we actually mean: diversity ofthoughtthat doesn't assume the whole world thinks in the way we think.

Absolu-fucking-letly.

Trevor Phillips, former head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission has made this exact point about how we often miss the point because we become so focused on certain things to the exclusion of others so we ultimately miss the point about diversity.

He did a documentary for the BBC on diversity and said that one of the flaws in focusing on race has been to miss socioeconomic status. Keep in mind, he himself is black.

His point was that the BBC had done very well at recruiting ethnic minorities but this had been very much at the expense of white, working class males with middle class minorities being more likely to get jobs. What they hadn't managed to tackle was how many staff were privately educated. In practice instead of broadening diversity, it was arguable that actually this approach had been narrowing diversity because staff had a similar upbringing and this meant that the BBC was blind to more working class viewpoints and wasn't representing poorer communities well on numerous levels. His point was it was actively harming social mobility and aspirations of certain communities.

There's clearly an issue within the charity sector about a lack of diversity of political identities, particularly in certain sections. We are seeing a whole bunch of people who have exactly the same political views running certain charities which has massive implications. There was a big thing about the National Trust along these lines not long ago, with there being a massive push on social media to get members to keep out certain people because they 'had the wrong political views'.

It's fundamentally damaging if it's a charity that's supposed to serve a broad spectrum of society. We absolutely should be having a broad width of political views, socio-economic background, age and professional experience with those who run a charity.

What strikes me about the list of trustees here is the apparent lack of management experience - which will include people management and understanding of HR skills combined with a couple of very dominant older characters within the charity supposedly being balanced by a lot of very inexperienced young people. There's a massive lack of understanding of GDPR and understanding HR (we made an admin error over gross misconduct and misconduct FFS. How in god's name do a) you manage this b) think this a suitable defence/ justification in an employment tribunal!!!)

That's not balance, thats a massive imbalance. I note particularly that it's much harder for a group of young people lacking in experience to stand up and robustly challenge older dominant characters. You really have to have some guts and conviction to do that. It's HARD. Managing people older than you generally isn't an easy task.

Not only that, but due to the way that trustees are appointed you are much more likely to see groupthink being deliberately established in order to reinforce an agenda. The whole grapevine thing and how there are activist cliques makes this a real weak point. Indeed if you have a dominant character within the charity, it effectively is possible to encourage the appointment of trustees who pretty much sit, nod and smile at what you are doing and it's only when the shit hits the fan that the lack of accountability this creates becomes very apparent. A charity which is TWAW is absolutely going to appoint trustees who are TWAW and avoid anyone who is known to be gender critical because they don't want the boat rocked, which is what trustees SHOULD be doing.

Instead because of diversity training which focuses on things like race, gender identity, sexuality and sex they can instead go - look we ticked all the boxes whilst simultaneously appointing a bunch of middle class people who all share the same opinions and have similar life experiences.

The key point is what previous posters have said - balance. But diversity training is arguably not doing this and is blind to this because it's not looking at the whole picture.

We are seeing this pattern in media, in politics and the charity sector it's everywhere.

I'd argue that all this diversity training misses the key point of ALL equality and human rights principles which is to balance the needs and wants of ALL parties. Instead it creates this hierarchy of repression which is dumb as fuck and doesn't actually reflect jack shit. It overwhelmingly harms the lowest socio-economic groups.

Women's charities will happily recruit males to increase their diversity score but fail to recruit women from groups most likely to use / need a service like this and will happily throw the most vulnerable under the bus because they are unable to express their views when these are the women who are most need of advocates.

The truth in journalism and in human rights is to look not for what is said but for the gaps in what is said. Those glaring silences and lack of voices are where the biggest stories are found, the biggest issues lie and where the most vulnerable are stuck. They are never the noisy groups on social media...

RedToothBrush · 20/01/2024 17:01

RethinkingLife · 20/01/2024 13:21

And on that point, whilst I agree with encouraging women to get involved, I’d also strongly urge you to make sure you understand what you are letting yourself in for beforehand.

Post-Grenfell, there was considerable talk about increasing the (vicarious) legal liabilities of trustees which would make some posts very undesirable. Does anyone else recall that and the outcome?

Remind me again what exactly has been implemented in practice since Grenfell. I was under the impression that everything was either watered down, still stuck in the inquiry process or quietly conveniently forgotten about. Hence there being marches by residents every now and again to try and raise awareness of how fuck all has been learnt and how victims have been totally failed by the justice system.

It kind of makes my point - those voices were ignorable which lead to the tragedy and they are still ignorable now. Cos they aren't people in the right socio-economic positions to be taken more seriously.

This is why whistle blowing scandals rumble on for years and years and no one is ever really held accountable (human rights are all about trying to readdress this imbalance - without them the situation would be even worse).