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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Anti trans debate

187 replies

Beedleneedle · 12/01/2024 04:50

I’ve noticed on mumsnet there’s a strong feminist anti trans stance. That’s fine in theory, but I’m surprised these topics affect so many people. In my day to day life I never experience any push/agenda! Where is this happening?

OP posts:
DeanElderberry · 12/01/2024 16:18

@YireosDodeAver · Today 07:06

No one should be discriminated against if they choose not to follow the sexist stereotypes that are culturally linked to their birth sex

Of course they shouldn't be. That doesn't mean that have to follow the sexist stereotypes culturally linked to the opposite sex. Ignore stereotypes and live as an individual.

I am not anti Trans, but I am strongly anti 'gender'. I believe that many of the people identifying as trans, particularly the very young, are being harmed by the businesses that make money out of pushing 'gender' stereotypes and by convincing the impressionable that they have to conform.

KG74 · 12/01/2024 16:51

Tis indeed a hot bed and honestly, most of these people have never met a trans person let alone had anything to report to the police about them. It's pure panic, like we had during the debate about gay rights. Even the rhetoric is the same - abusers, pedos etc... It will all be gone in about 10 years because the younger generation are just not as prejudice or frightened, much like my generation and gay rights. I saw so much hate from the generation above me growing up, but now Gen x are the ones in charge, I get zero homophobia and I can even marry my girlfriend if I want.

It's just a waiting game. I tend not to get into any arguments about it because the people I knew back then who were homophobic now don't admit they ever were. Society is on the turn from the younger generation up and society is what changes minds, so best to just let them burn themselves out.

InnCognito · 12/01/2024 16:53

NoMoreFalafelsForYou · 12/01/2024 13:11

It's the point at which many women find they are on the slow descent into second-class citizenship
See, it's posts like yours that make me take issue with the "GC" stance on here.
You fear monger. You tell women, possibly vulnerable ones, that they are on a slow descent into second class citizenship (which just makes me want to do a big FUCK OFF to that, nobody has said that we're that, you insinuating that we are and putting that in someone as an idea, alienating and "out to get" mentality. As such and an aside but relevant I've only ever heard it said in here men hate us, nowhere else.
It can make people feel that the world is against them, it's exactly what other groups do to radicalise (hate that word, but it describes perfectly) To make you feel alone.
You've tagged her twice in the same post too (to doubly make sure she see you? One surely would do)
It's sickening.

Recognising the fact that discrimination against women on the basis of their sex is real, global and systemic isn't fearmongering.

TheClogLady · 12/01/2024 16:58

KG74 · 12/01/2024 16:51

Tis indeed a hot bed and honestly, most of these people have never met a trans person let alone had anything to report to the police about them. It's pure panic, like we had during the debate about gay rights. Even the rhetoric is the same - abusers, pedos etc... It will all be gone in about 10 years because the younger generation are just not as prejudice or frightened, much like my generation and gay rights. I saw so much hate from the generation above me growing up, but now Gen x are the ones in charge, I get zero homophobia and I can even marry my girlfriend if I want.

It's just a waiting game. I tend not to get into any arguments about it because the people I knew back then who were homophobic now don't admit they ever were. Society is on the turn from the younger generation up and society is what changes minds, so best to just let them burn themselves out.

Do you know ANY of Gen Alpha? 🤣

As far as I can see they are watching their miserable trans identifying Gen Z siblings and cousins and rejecting gender identity ideology wholesale. Gen Alpha are the Terfy Generation.

You seem very out of date!

anyolddinosaur · 12/01/2024 16:58

Another post not engaging in good faith. Sighs. I have a young trans relative, I'm not "anti-trans". I'm anti damaging children's health - my young relative is now, a few years post transition, beginning to show that damage. I'm anti homosexual conversion therapy, which is what transition can be. I'm anti misogyny, which you sometimes see in males who claim to be female but want to punch anyone who doesnt 100% support them in the face. I'm anti people like this https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/22/commuter-sexually-assaulted-female-toilets-man-who-later-claims/#:~:text=The%20woman%20challenged%20Bullock%20and,that%20he%20identified%20as%20female. - are you?

A lot of healthy gay young people are being persuaded they are trans and damaging their health. If it wasnt so damaging it would be laughable that the activists accuse others of homophobia while promoting homosexual conversion therapy.

Theinnocenteyeballsinthesky · 12/01/2024 17:06

It’s literally nothing like gay & lesbians peoples fight for rights

gay & lesbian people wanted the same rights as everyone

TW ie men want men’s rights AND women’s rights as well & for people to pretend they’re a woman when they’re not

nope

InnCognito · 12/01/2024 17:09

KG74 · 12/01/2024 16:51

Tis indeed a hot bed and honestly, most of these people have never met a trans person let alone had anything to report to the police about them. It's pure panic, like we had during the debate about gay rights. Even the rhetoric is the same - abusers, pedos etc... It will all be gone in about 10 years because the younger generation are just not as prejudice or frightened, much like my generation and gay rights. I saw so much hate from the generation above me growing up, but now Gen x are the ones in charge, I get zero homophobia and I can even marry my girlfriend if I want.

It's just a waiting game. I tend not to get into any arguments about it because the people I knew back then who were homophobic now don't admit they ever were. Society is on the turn from the younger generation up and society is what changes minds, so best to just let them burn themselves out.

You should contact Stonewall, because they claim that levels of hate crimes on the basis of sexual orientation are rising. The group most likely to commit hate crimes are male and young btw (you know gen X & gen Z), not middle-aged women.

I'd also check out the hope not hate surveys on young people which shows that younger generations are more likely to think that 'feminism has gone to far' - which as a woman should concern you, as well as being more likely to believe conspiracy theories. You maybe shouldn't be quite so complacent

nepeta · 12/01/2024 18:30

If you define 'trans rights' as the right to redefine 'women and girls' so that the terms have nothing to do with biological sex but are all about sexist gender stereotypes about femininity and/or assumed comfort with sexist gender roles for women, then it's very difficult not to be against such 'trans rights' as they are directly ladled out from the hard-won rights of female people. And would ultimately make seeing sexism almost impossible, as the statistics on that would not be collected, the words to define the affected group would not exist and so on.

If you define 'trans rights' as the right not to be discriminated against in employment or education and not to be harassed or treated with violence and so on, then nobody here is opposed to those rights.

Because words now seem to mean anything someone wants them to mean, we don't know what we might be debating when someone says 'anti trans'.

I am for women's rights, the old-fashioned type, and currently I see those rights being seen as unnecessary and up for repurposing by the more deserving groups.

What used to be called 'women and girls' are now expected to accept themselves as 'cisgender women and girls', the more privileged sub-group in the new gender identity class of 'women and girls'.

We are not allowed to define ourselves as 'women and girls' simply because we are female people. We are told that we must possess an innermost abstract identity, not based on our sex or on what it is like to live as people of that sex, and any attempt to define that innermost 'gendered soul' in practice turns into sexist stereotypes.

This new approach will cause more and more problems the more it is used. Some minor examples:

I saw an article, some time ago, on how "becoming a parent" causes a fall in employed parents' earnings. But that is incorrect, as it's becoming a mother which causes that fall, on average, not becoming a father (fathers see their earnings rise, on average). When 'inclusive language' turned 'mother' into 'parent', what that article argued stopped being true.

I have also seen numerical errors on sites discussing specific female health conditions and their prevalence, because the information was altered to be more 'inclusive' to those who don't identify as women or girls but who are still female. So something that affects, say, 10% of women, was then turned into a condition affecting 10% of all people. This is just an arithmetic error, but I have seen it repeated three times now.

If we can't define the group something affects properly, then we can't collect and analyse evidence about it properly, either.

Similar problems apply in some criminal statistics where areas of crime which are very male-dominated suddenly appear to experience an increase in female perpetrators, and the reason is not that women are suddenly committing more sex crimes against, say, children, but that more male perpetrators are identifying as women. If collecting statistics on the basis of self-identification becomes more common, any policies based on them are likely to be based on erroneous data.

StragglyTinsel · 12/01/2024 18:45

RubyTrees · 12/01/2024 13:57

The mantra of the handmaiden is, in essence, "If it doesn't affect me, I don't care."

@RoyalCorgi absolutely.

My sister is a handmaiden. Highly educated but completely blind to the erosion of women's rights around the world.

I actually think there’s an unspoken party of the handmaiden manifesto.

They say ‘if it doesn’t affect me, I don’t care’. But what they actually mean is ‘it doesn’t affect me right now, and I very much care about using this to make myself look better in the terms set by patriarchal society’.

It would be better if they didn’t care. Instead they are willing to throw all the other (unpalatable and problematic) women under the gender ideology bus if they think it reflects well on their identity as ‘kind’ and ‘good’.

Froodwithatowel · 12/01/2024 18:46

KG74 · 12/01/2024 16:51

Tis indeed a hot bed and honestly, most of these people have never met a trans person let alone had anything to report to the police about them. It's pure panic, like we had during the debate about gay rights. Even the rhetoric is the same - abusers, pedos etc... It will all be gone in about 10 years because the younger generation are just not as prejudice or frightened, much like my generation and gay rights. I saw so much hate from the generation above me growing up, but now Gen x are the ones in charge, I get zero homophobia and I can even marry my girlfriend if I want.

It's just a waiting game. I tend not to get into any arguments about it because the people I knew back then who were homophobic now don't admit they ever were. Society is on the turn from the younger generation up and society is what changes minds, so best to just let them burn themselves out.

I am gay, I was during the time when I could have lost my job for being gay, no this is not like gay rights. Gay people did not need anything from anyone else but tolerance. They made no demands, they removed no other rights. They did not have a difficulty with caring about anyone or anything but themselves.

I see you're concerned about 'hatefulness' - what would you like to do with all the women excluded from any space to permit male people to have free access of choice to all spaces?

Many of those women do not have a choice. They cannot use mixed sex spaces, many are disabled, have other faiths and cultures, are traumatised, have a whole host of reasons and needs of their own.

What do we do with them? Because obviously, they matter as much as male people do. And their inclusion and not experiencing 'hate' is just as important.

And what are we going to do about women being searched by male police? And the women raped in prisons and on hospital wards? And the women staying in dangerous, life threatening relationships because no refuges are permitted to stay female only for their inclusion? And the women without rape crisis services?

Are these women walking 'hate' for existing or are there some legitimate problems here that an intelligent, basically socially competent and caring person ought to be able to comprehend?

StephanieSuperpowers · 12/01/2024 18:47

StragglyTinsel · 12/01/2024 18:45

I actually think there’s an unspoken party of the handmaiden manifesto.

They say ‘if it doesn’t affect me, I don’t care’. But what they actually mean is ‘it doesn’t affect me right now, and I very much care about using this to make myself look better in the terms set by patriarchal society’.

It would be better if they didn’t care. Instead they are willing to throw all the other (unpalatable and problematic) women under the gender ideology bus if they think it reflects well on their identity as ‘kind’ and ‘good’.

But very much on the understanding that there are women who care. Because otherwise, they just might have to take notice.

Froodwithatowel · 12/01/2024 18:48

I'll add that the most homophobic 'hate' I have ever experienced has been in the past seven years - not in the 70s and 80s - and it has been directly from the transactivist community.

Datun · 12/01/2024 18:50

KG74 · 12/01/2024 16:51

Tis indeed a hot bed and honestly, most of these people have never met a trans person let alone had anything to report to the police about them. It's pure panic, like we had during the debate about gay rights. Even the rhetoric is the same - abusers, pedos etc... It will all be gone in about 10 years because the younger generation are just not as prejudice or frightened, much like my generation and gay rights. I saw so much hate from the generation above me growing up, but now Gen x are the ones in charge, I get zero homophobia and I can even marry my girlfriend if I want.

It's just a waiting game. I tend not to get into any arguments about it because the people I knew back then who were homophobic now don't admit they ever were. Society is on the turn from the younger generation up and society is what changes minds, so best to just let them burn themselves out.

lol.

I'm going to take a wild guess that you don't actually know any 11-year-old kids?

You can see their collective eye rolling from space.

Datun · 12/01/2024 18:54

I get zero homophobia and I can even marry my girlfriend if I want.

Well, of course, that could be because you're a man married to a woman. (Or a woman married to a man - far less likely, in my opinion).

I'm going to guess that it's not because you're a woman married to a woman, because Stonewall would view that unequivocal, no room for arguments, sexual orientation as, what was it again? Oh yeah, sexual racism.

StragglyTinsel · 12/01/2024 19:03

StephanieSuperpowers · 12/01/2024 18:47

But very much on the understanding that there are women who care. Because otherwise, they just might have to take notice.

The caring is part of what makes those women unpalatable. The whole ‘eurgh, I’m not a feminist’ thing. Or, if they do identify as feminist, they are truly horrified at those horrible ‘trans-excluding/second waver/radical’ feminists.

They are nice, choice feminists, ‘allies’ who seek to check their ‘cis’ or ‘cis-get’ privilege. Not like those bad feminists.

Datun · 12/01/2024 19:03

I tend not to get into any arguments about it

I bet you don't ! 😁

StragglyTinsel · 12/01/2024 19:06

Datun · 12/01/2024 18:50

lol.

I'm going to take a wild guess that you don't actually know any 11-year-old kids?

You can see their collective eye rolling from space.

I’ve got a 14 year old. He and his friends are with generation alpha in the eye rolling. They think it’s pretty ridiculous that the school insists that they must pretend they believe that humans can change sex and that Maddie is now a boy called Ivor (or Vincent or whatever the name is now) because it has been decreed as such.

StephanieSuperpowers · 12/01/2024 19:17

StragglyTinsel · 12/01/2024 19:03

The caring is part of what makes those women unpalatable. The whole ‘eurgh, I’m not a feminist’ thing. Or, if they do identify as feminist, they are truly horrified at those horrible ‘trans-excluding/second waver/radical’ feminists.

They are nice, choice feminists, ‘allies’ who seek to check their ‘cis’ or ‘cis-get’ privilege. Not like those bad feminists.

They're still relying on us to hold the line, though, so be kind dick pandering doesn't reach its natural conclusion.

StragglyTinsel · 12/01/2024 19:19

StephanieSuperpowers · 12/01/2024 19:17

They're still relying on us to hold the line, though, so be kind dick pandering doesn't reach its natural conclusion.

They can sweep that bit under the rug though. It’s ok so long as we use the servants entrance and never speak in their presence unless spoken to directly.

Ramblingnamechanger · 12/01/2024 22:59

How can you possibly think that lesbians are not affected by men pretending to be women and even lesbians? Through the 90s, women and lesbian groups were destroyed by these men. In the last twenty years we have been attacked in so many ways. Where were you then KG74 ?

BusyMummyWrites01 · 12/01/2024 23:08

@Ramblingnamechanger it wasn’t until this issue came up with my trans identifying child (who now realises she is lesbian, not trans) that I realised how lesbophobic society is. Girls still get teased at school, boys/men still sexually objectify lesbians and joke about threesomes, etc. I am horrified that I hadn’t appreciated it until it impacted my teen and that I have blindly gone through the last 20 years thinking that we ‘were done will all that’ gay rights stuff having sorted section 28, naively believing that gays/lesbians were totally accepted in society (and family courts). Feel my generation fell asleep at the wheel.

fabricstash · 12/01/2024 23:18

I am horrified that young gay teens i know are being convinced online that if they trans across they will be the other sex. At what point is it kind to tell the truth - do we wait for irreversible damage

SpicyMoth · 12/01/2024 23:23

Beedleneedle · 12/01/2024 05:30

@porridgecake not goady no, naive sure! I’m simply saying in my experience the only time I ever come across trans debate is here on mumsnet. I’m just surprised people are so passionate about the impact on our lives when I don’t experience it.

"I’m just surprised people are so passionate about the impact on our lives when I don’t experience it."

Just because you don't experience it doesn't mean other's don't experience it, it will depend heavily on your interests/circles/location/many other factors.

Trans Ideaology is rife within my artistic hobby for example, and I experienced mass attacks and smear campaigns just for expressing that only biological women have cervixes and that it was pointless to send out smear test invitation to trans women in Scotland - Massive waste of money and resources.
I am transphobic and a "TERF" for saying this.
I have been unable to continue with my hobby in the same way since and have to be exceedingly careful about anything and everything I say on the rare occasion somebody wants to work with me.

The only swimming pool near me is mixed sex only. I do not feel safe going on my own.

I could list off many many other instances I have experienced personally but I'd be here all day and I've already written a decently long paragraph imo.

I'd be interested to know at what point women's lived experiences and struggles with "TWAW" ideology become valid to you - seeing as trans peoples experiences are already seemingly valid by default?

duc748 · 12/01/2024 23:56

I sympathise, @SpicyMoth . You can't tell the truth, Jeez, you can't even piss in peace!

Sometimesrational · 13/01/2024 00:17

There's something reminiscent of Jeremy Vine's 'Err, can someone explain to me what's happening here?', about this post.