Anti trans debate

[Beedleneedle]

I’ve noticed on mumsnet there’s a strong feminist anti trans stance. That’s fine in theory, but I’m surprised these topics affect so many people. In my day to day life I never experience any push/agenda! Where is this happening?

So this “started in the early hours, UK time” thread has been moved from AIBU to FWR, has it?

Interesting. How would you feel if, in order to fulfil its ‘equality’ agenda to encourage more women into that type of role, they rejected you and chose a recently announced transwoman who they know will never get pregnant. He will count for their female diversity figures. You will struggle to sue for sex discrimination if the law regards him as female.

You may not yet have been impacted, but many people are now expected to use or display pronouns at work , for example; or have been disciplined at work for refusing to use them; or for suggesting that males remain male no matter how they identify. For feeling unconfortable when a male colleague now insists on using the women's facilities at work.

Others have children, or pupils, who have become caught up in the trans trend and are struggling to deal with it.

Some are simply offended by the idea that a woman is just an idea in someone's head and has no integrity or existence beyond that.

Many of us have encountered trans identifying or cross dressing men in our everyday life, and we know this is the case because they are obviously still male. some of us have had unpleasant, or worse, experieneces with men inserting themselves without consent, into women's private spaces.

Many women have eeven been banned by Mumsnet for speaking the truth; or have been thrown off twitter or other social media for speaking openly. Some women have been arrested.

Regarding anger, yeah, I will admit I'm a bit angry. We've been warning that, for example, failing to take women's rights, safety and dignity into account would end up with violent men in women's prisons, only to be told it would never happen and it was "hatred" to suggest it would. It has happened. But now it's "hatred" to object. This is not the only instance where feminists have tried to warn about the implications of trans focused policies failing to consider the impacts on women and time and time again we've been abused or ignored and time and time again we've been right. So yeah, I'm angry. And I'll still be angry in a five year's time when the lunatics who are promoting this outrageous idiocy are trying to wash their hands of responsibility for the people whose lives they are ruining.

I think it was your framing of the issue as being 'anti trans' that has provoked such responses. Women have had to battle that accusation for years.

This is nothing to do with individuals, bur rather with a rampant ideology.

IIRC the requirement for women to wear heels when men don't has been challenged - and won - more than once in court. As is the requirement to wear skirts, makeup and so on.

My point is: equality doesn't mean that there should be exactly the same uniforms. It means that where uniforms are required, especially where they perform a protective function, they should work on all bodies regardless of sex.

Companies that discriminate by saying "women are to wear 5" heels and pencil skirts" should be taken to the cleaners unless the actual job is about wearing those things (ie Model)

Many women have eeven been banned by Mumsnet for speaking the truth; or have been thrown off twitter or other social media for speaking openly. Some women have been arrested.

it's insane, isn't it, when you think about it.

Helen Joyce says the same, that people simply don't believe her. They think she's exaggerating.

I can't roll my eyes enough at this discussion constantly being put on the naughty step.

Where people don't see it and it enables idiots on Twitter and elsewhere to perpetuate the myth that MN is anti-trans. 😡

Katie Dolatowski, 6ft 5, attacked a 10 year old girl in the women's toilets in a Scottish supermarket. Without the idea that any man who wants to thinks he's a woman can go into the women's toilets, this couldn't have happened.

Amy/Andrew Miller abducted a girl whilst dressed as a woman, then went on to rape her and imprison her. The judge said Miller dressing as / presenting as a woman contributed to the fact the child got into the car.

How many children need to be harmed before giving up women's rights and sex based safeguarding becomes important? There are multiple examples of women and children harmed much closer to home than literally anything happening in Gaza but plenty of people are passionate about that and no-one's saying they shouldn't care? Seems weird to suggest we shouldn't care about these child victims.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11995845/Trans-female-sex-offender-backed-Sturgeons-gender-reform-laws-held-male-jail-78-days.html

https://news.sky.com/story/andrew-miller-jailed-for-20-years-for-abducting-and-sexually-assaulting-girl-in-scottish-borders-12983829

I wonder if someone posted in AIBU a thread entitled

Pro-women debate

with a text that said :

I’ve noticed on mumsnet there’s a strong feminist pro women stance. That’s fine in theory, but I’m surprised these topics affect so many people. In my day to day life I never experience any push/agenda! Where is this happening?

If it would also be moved pronto

Let's see...the creation of mixed sex toilets. I've had two worrying experiences in there with men. They're doing it for 'inclusion' but it means that aggressive men full of alcohol get to be on their own in a confined space with women.

I was giving a lift to a university gig to some young people and one of the young women commented that she'd just remembered about the mixed sex toilets there and felt really unsafe in them. So this spans all generations.

This is an unintended consequence of prioritising people who thinks gender feelings trump everything.

This not only affects me regularly but also disabled people as invariably the advice when I've told the bar what happened is to use the only disabled loo instead.

Many of us are not as lucky as you. Particularly those of us whose husbands decided to identify as trans.

So am I right that it started in AIBU? I assumed it had, as I didn’t notice it in FWR this morning, and the opening post has got that AIBU feel to it.

lol Maybe give it a few weeks, and then try it, and see what happens?

OP, I'm curious if you've thought very much about teenaged girls and breast binding? Have you thought about whether there are medical implications?... Whether the potential for experimenting with it not because you're unhappy being female but re a female girl that's unhappy with your changing body in a sexist society and you want to reduce your feelings of self consciousness around that?
Have you thought that potentially wearing an uncomfortable device that is designed to flatten your breasts will as a side effect constrict your ability to take good big deep lungfulls of air?
Have you thought about what the effects of being aware of this device on your body all day long might do on a psychological level and what the next conclusion about how a teenaged girl feels about their developing body might be?

OP, what if you were in Scotland and were a parent of a teenage girl who'd been very happily a girl up to the time their body started to change. They'd expressed no feelings of being the opposite sex at all (assuming they hadn't been told only boys can do xyz along the way) and you had concerns about the health and physical implications of breast binding.

Would you be ok to keep these worries to yourself and support your daughter in restricting her breasts and ribcage?

Will try to remember 😁

OP I'm not "anti-trans" and neither are a lot of people on this board, but I do want any discussion on the issues around this to be grounded in evidence and respect longstanding principles of safeguarding. There are serious issues at play here with real life consequences. I'd love to be "live and let live", but that's not the world we exist in and there must be scrutiny in education, health, sport etc.

I don't think that's unreasonable or transphobic.

Gaaarrrrrrr early morning waking and I fell for it hook like and sinker 🙄 why do I reply to these posts when it’s clear that the OP does not want to really listen (living in hope OP comes back and shoots me down).

Have they got some nice screenshots I wonder?

@Beedleneedle You're right, Gender Theory is just theoretical whereas violence and sex discrimination against women and girls is a reality that many of us have experienced and continue to experience. Why are you surprised that we continue try to protect women?

I find this thread deeply ironic considering the thread OP had posted AIBU which is basically all about assumptions around gender roles and how annoying they are

Do you have a link?

Yes. Remember Jameela Jamil claiming women were lying when we raised Karen White? Outright flatly refused to believe it was true.

Because it is literally incredible that a rapist would be put in a women's prison. But its happened. More than once.

So you arrive at the job interview, the man interviewing you illegally asks if you plan to have children and you answer yes (because this is a bit of chit chat on the walk to the interview room rather than a formal question). You don't get the job and are gutted - it was the perfect role for you and you felt the interview went well. You remember the 'chat' about children and start to wonder if you have been discriminated against. As this was an internal promotion to a different department you are able to find out who got the job and it is Georgia, until last year Georgia was George - they are less qualified than you and have less experience so now you really think that your mentioning that you plan to have children soon has absolutely cost you the job. You start proceedings for sex discrimination but get nowhere because Georgia 'is a woman' but you know Georgia won't ever take maternity leave so does the hiring manager (who so casualty dropped families into the conversation). Because Georgia is now classes as a woman you can't claim sex discrimination. If woman means a woman or a man there can't be sex discrimination or sex based rights. It matters because if we can't define women we can't protect women.

Why is it important even though it doesn’t affect me personally?

Because one day it MIGHT affect me when I find a male-bodied person in the changing room with me or in a hospital ward or, God forbid, a prison cell. It MIGHT affect my family if a child in it decides they want to change gender and they end up in a clinic that pushes puberty blockers. It MIGHT affect those around me who compete and find themselves pushed out of wins or placings by men.

But I’m also not someone who thinks “I’m alright Jack, so fuck those who aren’t”.

THAT’S why.