Anti trans debate

[Beedleneedle]

I’ve noticed on mumsnet there’s a strong feminist anti trans stance. That’s fine in theory, but I’m surprised these topics affect so many people. In my day to day life I never experience any push/agenda! Where is this happening?

It does impact me as I see it via the school teaching on gender ideology

What do you mean by you don’t support trans rights, by the way, OP?

Do you realise that ‘why should I care about things that don’t affect me directly such that I’m aware anyway?’ stance is the absolute epitome of the narrowly focused individualism that tends to underpin all trans activism.

It’s all about the (trans) individual: their feelings, their wants, their ‘lived experience’. The idea that there might be a bigger picture than just the individual and their own view of themselves just whooshes straight past.

Bunbury always thinks of Vaclav Havel's Power of the Powerless when discussing, "Why should I care, it doesn't affect me."

The manager of a fruit-and-vegetable shop places in his window, among the onions and carrots, the slogan: "Workers of the world, unite!" Why does he do it? What is he trying to communicate to the world? Is he genuinely enthusiastic about the idea of unity among the workers of the world? Is his enthusiasm so great that he feels an irrepressible impulse to acquaint the public with his ideals? Has he really given more than a moment's thought to how such a unification might occur and what it would mean?

I think it can safely be assumed that the overwhelming majority of shopkeepers never think about the slogans they put in their windows, nor do they use them to express their real opinions. That poster was delivered to our greengrocer from the enterprise headquarters along with the onions and carrots. He put them all into the window simply because it has been done that way for years, because everyone does it, and because that is the way it has to be. If he were to refuse, there could be trouble. He could be reproached for not having the proper decoration in his window; someone might even accuse him of disloyalty. He does it because these things must be done if one is to get along in life. It is one of the thousands of details that guarantee him a relatively tranquil life "in harmony with society," as they say.

Obviously the greengrocer is indifferent to the semantic content of the slogan on exhibit; he does not put the slogan in his window from any personal desire to acquaint the public with the ideal it expresses. This, of course, does not mean that his action has no motive or significance at all, or that the slogan communicates nothing to anyone. The slogan is really a sign, and as such it contains a subliminal but very definite message. Verbally, it might be expressed this way: "I, the greengrocer XY, live here and I know what I must do. I behave in the manner expected of me. I can be depended upon and am beyond reproach. I am obedient and therefore I have the right to be left in peace." This message, of course, has an addressee: it is directed above, to the greengrocer's superior, and at the same time it is a shield that protects the greengrocer from potential informers. The slogan's real meaning, therefore, is rooted firmly in the greengrocer's existence. It reflects his vital interests. But what are those vital interests?

Let us take note: if the greengrocer had been instructed to display the slogan "I am afraid and therefore unquestioningly obedient;' he would not be nearly as indifferent to its semantics, even though the statement would reflect the truth.

https://hac.bard.edu/amor-mundi/the-power-of-the-powerless-vaclav-havel-2011-12-23

I echo what other have said. Being pro women’s rights does not mean being anti trans.
And mumsnet is one of the very few places where issues of sex/gender can be discussed - so there are indeed a lot of conversations about it here.
See the recent Rachel Meade case for an idea of what can happen when professionals express concerns about self-id. People are afraid to discus these issues openly.
https://www.colekhan.co.uk/news/uvzuy6kcrtb5lwg59pxbs44tqbeuj2

Struggling to link on the app (probably my incompetence) but basically it’s around childcare when you’re both high earners

Yes so much this!!! It’s individualism dialled up to the max. The ONLY thing that matters are their wants & demands. Everyone else is unimportant

@Beedleneedle I have teens. Once has id’d as trans since she was 12 - the moment her periods started. We’ve had 6 years of hell, self harming and MH issues. All because the trans movement told her that because she was ASD/ADHD, found it hard to socialise with her peers (girls especially), find the ickiness of periods hard to cope with (ASD-related OCD); is fearful of change (ASD), fearful of the way women seem vulnerable in society (pds started in the mids of #metoo, Weinstein case and Trump grab-’em-by-the-p*ssy tapes) that OF COURSE she was born in the wrong body and is trans.

She’s not. Until this she wasn’t even gender non-conforming. However 70% (I kid you not) of her female peers also identified as queer/trans (trans, pan, ace, demi, gender-fluid depending on the weather [again I seriously kid you not on the last one]). It was not until she failed to make it through 6th form twice and then watched all her peers go to uni that she woke up.

She is undergoing therapy for anxiety and now has medication for ADHD, is two years behind but still hoping to get to university - and very, very angry that this trans stuff derailed her. Most of her peers have dropped the trans stuff and moved on to a different ‘cause’, but they’ve been left largely unimpacted. She, however, was vulnerable, desperate to fit in, sensitive and fragile.

If you have kids, or work in HR (like my SIL and Sister) it is bloody everywhere. My youngest has several ‘trans’ friends, too, who he tried to humour and remain respectful of. However he’s got a boarding place at a state 6th from sept (on the grounds of being both a young carer of a sibling with MH needs and also having ASD/anxiety himself), chosing to attend a college with non trans/GC friends to get away from the whole drama. It’s devastated our family.

I know you may feel it only impacts a few - and knowing a tiny number of actual transsexuals now for whom I have the deepest respect and compassion for their journeys - I feel this movement is disproportionately powerful and insidious. And that is before we get to the impact on women’s sports, sex-specific healthcare and safe spaces.

Hope this highlights why some of us seem a bit rabid about it.

Thanks. I stopped reading because there was a bit too much focus on the salary. I'll go back to it

They are.

I was using "people rejecting sexist stereotypes" as a term to encompass both people who identify as trans and also people who don't but might be "read" as such eg butch lesbian women.

"Gender transition" is protected already. People can wear what they want and use facilities and services as trans-identifying people with no problems.

The existing legislation does all it needs to.

The "issue" which I believe ought to be clarified more strongly is that a man who is choosing not to conform to sexist stereotypes to the extent of preferring to wear dresses and makeup and long hair etc has every right to do so and should not be discriminated against but the comparator to establish discrimination is whether they are being treated less favourably than a man who is conforming to stereotypes by wearing traditionally "male" clothing. The comparator is not that they must be treated exactly as a woman would be because women have protections and rights to have spaces and opportunities that are not allowed to be infiltrated by males.

Not anti, just pro women.

I’m guessing you haven’t got a secondary school age kid? If you had you would’ve likely witnessed the utter shitshow of disruption that gender identity ideology is causing in that age group and in class rooms.

(Gender identity ideology is not an overlap with people who have transitioned, lots of long term transitioners believe they are of their birth sex but have a mental health condition, rather than having been born with a gendered soul)

I see from the OP's other thread's opening post that the OP is pregnant with a child already.

It's the point at which many women find they are on the slow descent into second-class citizenship.

Indeed,@Beedleneedle is frustrated by her husband's assumption that she will take on certain childcare jobs which he could do just as easily.

So maybe feminism is looking a bit more relevant?

And, of course, this board is dominated by the issue of women's rights being eroded by gender ideology. So I can easily see why she might be asking why.

@Beedleneedle I hope you come back.

The mantra of the handmaiden is, in essence, "If it doesn't affect me, I don't care."

"I don't care about vulnerable women being forced to share prison space with rapists, because I'm never going to go to prison."

"I don't care about male police officers having the right to strip search women, because I'll never be arrested."

"I don't care about sportswomen losing out on scholarships and medals because I'm not a sportswoman."

"I don't care that terrified women in domestic abuse shelters find themselves sharing a bathroom with men, because I've never experienced domestic abuse."

"I don't care if women are disciplined by their employer for having the wrong opinions, because I never have the wrong opinion."

If you're the sort of person who is not inclined to care about other people, then it's very hard to make you care, except out of an appeal to self-interest. So may I remind the OP and others who may be reading of the words of Martin Niemoller:

"Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

It’s like that saying “I didn’t speak up
for….” lists minority group then when they came for It me there was no one to speak up.

It's more like "fo it to Jane, not me'

It's the point at which many women find they are on the slow descent into second-class citizenship
See, it's posts like yours that make me take issue with the "GC" stance on here.
You fear monger. You tell women, possibly vulnerable ones, that they are on a slow descent into second class citizenship (which just makes me want to do a big FUCK OFF to that, nobody has said that we're that, you insinuating that we are and putting that in someone as an idea, alienating and "out to get" mentality. As such and an aside but relevant I've only ever heard it said in here men hate us, nowhere else.
It can make people feel that the world is against them, it's exactly what other groups do to radicalise (hate that word, but it describes perfectly) To make you feel alone.
You've tagged her twice in the same post too (to doubly make sure she see you? One surely would do)
It's sickening.

Excellent post.

‘sickening’ is weirdly hyperbolic, mate!

The reality is that most western women are able to convince themselves that feminism has done all it set out to do (and so there is no further need for it) right up until
the point they get pregnant (or fail to get pregnant when wanting to do so or decide emphatically that they will never have a child but find themselves on the ‘mummy track’ at work anyway, because women are expected to want a child at some point).

When you are young, fit, strong and naive (and lucky enough to live in the west) it’s easy to believe that women and men are more or less the same. It becomes increasingly difficult to keep telling yourself that as you age.

For me, having my first child was akin to a bird flying into a patio window, I was totally unaware of the boundaries that still existed until I smacked right into one.

The awful truth is that the only thing that makes women appear to have parity with men is sex equalities legislation. Women and girls in countries without sex equality legislation are fucked, and women in counties where it’s being undermined are likely to be fucked in future.

That doesn’t mean women should roll over and give up, it means we need to keep fighting where sex equality legislation is still-to-be-achieved and stay vigilant where is has.

I love being female, I love my children, I swap the camaraderie that can be part of a sisterhood for anything but I’m pretty sure I’d be less happy about being a woman if I were growing up somewhere where girls still aren’t given equal access to school, for example.

I CBA to check the current figures but women have a tiny fraction of the world’s wealth and own a tiny fraction of the world’s land. Recognising this isn’t sickening, it’s sensible.

I think if you find yourself asking women why they're concerned about women being raped in prison, assaulted by male police officers with punishment threatened if they dare say that male is a male who is not allowed to search them because male, concerned about all women having accessible services including health care and refuges and public loos, concerned about children being sterilised?

And you frame this as 'anti trans'?

It is probably time you had one hell of a word with yourself. And extended a bit of logic as to what you therefore mean by 'pro trans'.

@Beedleneedle - if you are going to characterise feminists being investing in supporting women's rights as "anti-trans", you need to expect some kickback.

Would you go to a group of women discussing reproductive rights and characterise them as "baby killers"? Of course not.

We support women's rights, we campaign for them and contribute to crowdfunders, we debate and discuss. If doing so is "anti-trans" then anything to do with trans rights is "anti-women".

The mantra of the handmaiden is, in essence, "If it doesn't affect me, I don't care."

@RoyalCorgi absolutely.

My sister is a handmaiden. Highly educated but completely blind to the erosion of women's rights around the world.

Yes, I'm speaking directly to the OP. Of course. This is her thread.

Because she's already noticing the sexism that is starting to arise in her own relationship.

If you don't think sexism and misogyny exists, then great. I suspect you are very very privileged, though. Or possibly male.

And many women start to notice it creeping up when they stop being able to hold an equal status in the family, because there are suddenly children involved.

If you haven't noticed, there is thread, after thread, after thread on this very site started by women who are doing the bulk of the domestic work, and still trying to hold down a job whilst also taking on the mental load of child rearing.

There is also thread after thread of women trying to escape from violent and threatening men. Whereas, we rarely see the converse.

This is the feminist board. It's about women's rights, women's status, and addressing sexism.

Feminism is what got women the vote, their own bank accounts, their own mortgages, an education, higher education, professional jobs and representation in Parliament.

Plus, the right not to be raped by their own husbands.

A right, incidentally, that was only achieved in 1992.

There will be a significant number of women on this very board who were married before then.

If you think a movement which highlights these things, and offers women support is sickening then perhaps you don't understand it.

You fear monger. You tell women, possibly vulnerable ones, that they are on a slow descent into second class citizenship

Why do you think Pregnant the Screwed are called that? Because that’s the point for many women when they realise how the world treats women differently to men. Once you have a baby you go from Potato with her full time graduate job, who manages a team of people and has a range of interesting hobbies, to Mum.
The gender (sex) pay gap is real, women have less in their pensions.
men, however, continue to soar in their career after having children, and no one criticises them at work for being a “working parent” and daring to ask for flexible working <eyeroll>.

Anyone on the feminist board who doesn't recognise sexism isn't really arguing in good faith, in my opinion.

It's far more likely that lots of women giving explanations of why trans ideology is so dangerous to women, is considered something that needs to be undermined. 🙄

(dangerous to women, but not men, funnily enough).

"I've noticed there's such a lot of activism these days for giving women the vote. That's fine in theory, but I'm surprised this topic affects so many women. In my day to day life I never experience any need for this and don't know any women who do. My husband takes care of all that and besides, I'm too busy taking care of the home and looking after the children to care about politics!"