Anti trans debate

[Beedleneedle]

I’ve noticed on mumsnet there’s a strong feminist anti trans stance. That’s fine in theory, but I’m surprised these topics affect so many people. In my day to day life I never experience any push/agenda! Where is this happening?

We have this pushed in DCs schools. There is a child on T in DDs year (that I know of) It is aggressively thought in schools (according to DC) and puberty blockers are “promoted” as safe in spite of several countries stopping them due to safety concerns.

I am terrified that my DCs will get bullied or develop and eating disorder given the high co-morbidity with gender dysphoria and trans. I am lucky that they are NT and I believe also at half of trans children are ND (someone will have the statistics).

does that explain some @Beedleneedle ? Do you have children?

@sashh "If you go to prison you may find yourself sharing a cell with a man"
Excellent post but I took offence at the wanton, blatant misgendering. Nicola Sturgeon told us that Isla pinky leggings is NOT a man! Pinky's gender is RAPIST! BE KIND YOU BIGOT! Don't suppose anyone knows what the pronouns are for that gender? Stonewall don't seem to have any info.

Some of thr frightening stats from the Mermaids and Stonewall championed Tavistock failures

In the vague hope the OP is legit...

It's about the impact of men in women's spaces on the most vulnerable women and girls in our society: disabled women, women in prison, older women with care needs, girls with a history of trauma or internalised homophobia. Those women are on the front line and are often least able to advocate for themselves.

I'm assuming @Beedleneedle has a relatively comfortable life in comparison so is floating through life thinking "well it doesn't affect me so...".

As someone else has recommended, read Helen Joyce's book. It's a quick and easy read and will blow your mind.

Trans rights are important. No one should be discriminated against if they choose not to follow the sexist stereotypes that are culturally linked to their birth sex. Protection from discrimination is already law and enfirced well. Trans rights do not yet, and should not, include the right to control other people's speech and beliefs. This is an additional right that some TRAs are campaigning for but it is not a view held by all trans people. This would be equivalent to muslim people campaigning for it to be illegal to say that one doesn't believe in Allah. It is not a reasonable position and it is right to campaign against it.

Women's rights are also important. Because of ongoing cultural domination by males in almost every sphere of influence as well as the natural increased strength and speed of male physiology it is right for women to have protected spaces and opportunities that are just for women and male people should not be able to crowbar into those by simply declaring that they are a woman. That is their belief, but no one else is obliged to share that belief and one male present makes it a mixed-sex environment that instantly puts all the women there at a disadvantage whether they share that belief system or not.

The numbers are small but they do make a huge difference.

It is not hatred to point out the problems and the reason you see it more here than anywhere else is that most other forums are censored to eliminate disagreement with TRA thought control.

There are lots of examples of women being disadvantaged by these policies. You would have to be willfully ignoring them to not be aware of the problems in sports, prisons, the regulations for who gets to stripsearch who if you are arrested by police, access to women only gym or yoga sessions, or rape crisis support groups, domestic violence shelters, nominations lists for women of the year in various fields etc etc. Just because it doesn't affect you directly is not a reason to suppose it's not happening or isn't important.

I came to this topic as my daughter identifies as trans, although on and off. Out of 30 girls (it's a girl only school) in the form, in year 9, at least 5 identified as trans. That's when it came to my radar.

@Beedleneedle there’s another thread about how ’only’ T I M police officers with a GRC can strip search women.

I don’t understand why a man’s self perception and decision to get a legal paper changes who is allowed to strip search me. Why does a decision he made affect who is allowed to stripsearch me?

And a family member is saving for a radical mastectomy and using testosterone.

Somehow the steroids athletes aren’t allowed to take because they are dangerous are fine for teenage girls to take.

Certainly does have real life impact. I can only assume you are a man who doesn’t have children or if you do they are pre schoolers?

Teen culture awash with this. Friends Dd says she’s a boy.

Mixed sex loos in theatres / restaurants which I hate.

Concern for Dd physically in case she has to play hockey with a man and get injured.

We used to host international students we only host girls. Forced to accept a lad with eye shadow. Which meant a mixed sex under age couple sharing a room in our house. Plus hosting a boy girls only which was Dh one rule he was furious. Stopped hosting now.

@Beedleneedle so you don’t think the redefinition of women away from “adult human female” to “adult human female and some men who feel like a woman even though that feeling amounts ti nothing more than gender stereotypes eg they like long hair and make up” isn’t a problem

how about it we define mother to mean “people who have given birth, people who have adopted and people who’ve never done any of those things but really feel like they’re a mother” I’m childless, should I be able to just call myself a mother? I’ve also used the word people advisedly as if you read articles now around periods, childbirth and menopause you’ll see many of them refer to “people who” rather than “women” Only women can do these things yet suddenly women won’t do. By contrast check out any article around male health and it’ll be men all the way through

so if women includes actual women but also men how do we ever have anything of our own? How do we keep our single sex spaces and services when we need them?

I haven't experienced racism but I'm still angry about

That's like saying why do white people get so annoyed and frustration with racism when they are never personally a victim of it.

If you wait until you are personally affected by it, it might be too late to change and do anything about it as it will already be embedded within society.

Do you have a daughter?

What if a trans girl or trans woman ( a boy / man) was suddenly allowed to use the girls changing rooms at school, the pub toilets, join the local football team, compete in running races and generally encroach on girls and women's spaces.

Is that ok for you? No objection? No foresight that whilst the majority may well be harmless, this is a free pass for the few that are wronguns that just want easy access to women and their space?

I hate this twisting of things to insist any objection to gender ideology is ‘anti-trans’.

It’s not.

If you actually wanted a conversation, I doubt you’d pick ‘you’re all anti-trans [with bigots implied]; this doesn’t even affect you. So why are you so horrible?’

It’s pro women sex based rights generally so the framing of ‘anti trans’ is incorrect

Plus gender ideology impacts a lot

I get red flags from the words “anti trans”. It’s not “anti trans” to prioritise women’s rights and needs. It’s perfectly reasonable we are forced to take a defensive position if our reasonable protective provisions that have been in place for years are stripped away because of the feelings of a minority of men. We are going to push back. Odd that that is seen as an attack on trans rights. They attacked women’s rights first we can’t just accede.

I see it in so many areas of my life through my job, through my children and their school, through my volunteer work and the places I go in the city I live. It's exhausting but I will stand up for women and children

This is like that article someone posted about semantic gentrification. But with the additional redefinition of any position we might take as ‘anti-trans’ and, therefore, bigoted and nasty.

Its about preventing any discussion or debate.

Given then TRAs pop along all the time to demand MNers account for their awful ‘anti-trans’ stance (with absolutely no intent to listen to MNers or to try to understand any position that isn’t enshrined in their own activism), very few people are going to believe this OP is asking in good faith.

I'm an extremely ordinary mum in my 50s.

I married a desister in the 90s.
I have 2 cousins who've transitioned surgically. A male one years ago, a female one very recently.
I know several young girls and women who have transitioned, a mix of social and some medical transition.
I worked in a health service unit that had a specialist strand for trans people - it was about 8 years ago so at that time it was 100% male people transitioning. That particular experience nearly broke me.
A friend of a friend worked at the Gender Identity Development Service at the Tavistock.
A very close friend's spouse has transitioned.

I actually can't think of any single other condition that I have had MORE personal experience of knowing people with. And each one of those situations listed has contributed to my views.

I was properly peaked when I read a woman’s experience of being sexually abused by a transwoman in prison.

I have never been in prison and hope I’m lucky enough never to experience incarceration so that policy doesn’t affect me personally but I am furious that any woman in prison in the UK should ever be locked up with a man, however he might identify.

OP. You can’t have children at secondary school if you have no experience of trans issues. Even if they go to a school that hasn’t been stonewalled there will likely be a number of children, mostly but not exclusively girls, who identify as trans.

Think of the creepiest man you know, one that you don't feel safe around as he's a sleaze who would sexually assault you given half the chance.

Now imagine him saying he's a woman, would you feel happy being on a hospital ward with him? How about being locked in a prison cell with him? Being convicted of a crime you didn't commit is all over the news at the moment due to the post office so don't assume it will never happen to you.

Is it anti trans to not feel comfortable with those scenarios? We are fighting to preserve women's rights, if the anti women transactivists weren't trying to take these away, we wouldn't be having these conversations.

As a guider, I am expected by HQ to accept a boy if he says he's a girl. HQ also expect me to take teenage boy to camp, sharing a tent with the girls but I am not allowed to let the parents know. Following Girlguiding rules mean that pregnancy is now a possible result of camp. Should parents know that their daughters are sharing a tent with a boy? Do you trust teenage hormones?

Can I ask what your views are?

Do you have an opinion on why more males seem to transition to female?

Is the reason for transitioning the same for every person and if not what is the most common reason?

Where does mental health fit in with all this?

I didn't know that about guides and camp.

We're not allowed to tell parents so it has to be anonymously

I can’t believe you can live in a world where nothing bothers you unless it happens to you directly and where you have no concern or compassion towards others simply because you aren’t affected by the issue.

Do you not get angry by the fact that women and children are abused all around the world?

Do you not get angry that thousands of people around the world are being killed in wars?

Do you not get angry that innocent people are murdered every day for no reason? Do you remember about 6 months ago a teenage girl got stabbed to death at a bus stop by her ex because she had broken up with him. Do you not see the injustice in that? Or are you not bothered because it happened to someone else?

Or what about children that are killed by dogs - do they not matter as it’s not your child that’s been killed?

Is that why you don’t care about trans-men, because it’s other women being pushed out of sports or being attacked, and not you or somebody you know?

I’m sure all of these issues anger you, I was purely posing the question to prove a point.

We don’t have to be directly affected by something to know that there are social problems that are unjust and that people suffer as a result.

What is happening to women as a result of trans-men claiming they are women and wanting to be treated as such is a massive, massive problem.

Thankfully most women want to come together to try and tackle it because they understand it’s a global issue that seems to be getting more and more out of hand, and they support and stand up for eachother rather than selfishly only care about themselves.

Found the information

What a load of bolloxk. Being so inclusive and the exclusion of real girls and women.

www.girlguiding.org.uk/information-for-volunteers/running-your-unit/including-all/lgbt-members/supporting-trans-members/