First time poster - question about GC beliefs

[lovelycosyslippers]

This is my first time posting on this board. I am trying to work out what my position is in the trans/gender debate.

If you hold gender critical beliefs, do you accept that some people firmly believe they are born in the 'wrong' body, and have a right to live as the other sex (up to but not including the point where it would impinge on the rights of that other sex), possibly taking hormones and undergoing surgery? Is this a coherent position to hold?

Or do you believe these people should not ever be supported to live as the opposite sex? That doing so is always wrong?

Hope this question makes sense!

@BonfireLady Are disgust and shame effective though? Don't some people find that adds to the excitement?

A friend of mine is currently living abroad and there is a man in her apartment block who masturbates very loudly at 5am every day and wakes up the entire building. They have tried subtly asking him to keep the noise down, they have tried being direct and saying "stop waking everyone up with your early morning wanks", they have tried shaming him by saying, "what the fuck is wrong with you, you disgusting pervert?" and nothing works, if anything he seems to be enjoying himself even more.

We do unfortunately see evidence of that sometimes on FWR where a male is gaining obvious gratification by seeking recreational scolding, shall we say, by provoking women to provide it.

Lundy Bancroft and many other strategies familiar to women in dealing with abusive and dysfunctional relationships become applicable rather often in all this.

Very true. One for the list maybe?

However, I still think it's a viable first defence in general.

Loosely related (in so far as it's about a different paraphilia) but I recently watched The Reckoning, which tells the story about Jimmy Saville. If enough people had felt confident and had been supported up the chain to shame him, he probably wouldn't have had increasing access to more senior and influencial positions (and more children 😔).

So I guess another important one for the list is that they know how to charm and manipulate the people who hold the keys to what they want. This is a more difficult one to spot though unless you see it first hand. It's more likely that it will be only obvious when it has already happened, because of the places that they have managed to navigate to.

that AMA and all subsequent interactions on FWR by that person was an actual bin-fire.

I'm gender critical but I think those in power benefit hugely from division in the general population so I feel like a centrist approach is the best way forward.

If it was up to me, everybody could wear what they want, use the pronouns that they want and call themselves whatever they want. There'd be proper peer reviewed research into the best way to treat children who identify as trans and to gain a better understanding of the link between trans teenagers and autism, police would take harassment of trans people seriously and money would be thrown at the nhs to reduce waiting list for trans people awaiting surgery or healthcare (in this imaginary scenario we can throw money at the nhs for other things too!).

All of that would sit alongside everybody having a solid understanding of the difference between sex and gender and the knowledge that sometimes biological sex is more important than gender identity. Nobody would take offence at common sense suggestions such as single sex spaces, segregation by sex in sport, prisons being separated by sex not gender.

that AMA and all subsequent interactions on FWR by that person was an actual bin-fire.

A very informative bin fire, though.

money would be thrown at the nhs to reduce waiting list for trans people awaiting surgery

This assumes surgery is a good thing, and further that rapid access to it is also good. I'd say there are very serious questions over both of those assumptions.

And few people would vote for gender surgery being a bigger priority for the NHS than yer granny's hip replacement.

use the pronouns that they want

People should indeed be able to choose what pronouns they use. But not what pronouns other people use about them.

This! TW can use she/har about themselves, they can’t insist/demand I use them about them

but the patterns always involve some kind of escalating need to transgress social boundaries if left unchecked i.e. it starts with one thing and then moves on to more. And by definition, they present an escalating danger to those around them as their behaviours escalate.

Off to look for a particular Twitter thread that borrowed the term ‘chasing the dragon’ to describe this aspect of fetishistic cross dressing…

And just as a reminder that surgery is far from the only thing being demanded -

https://www.tumblr.com/edinburghath/163521055802/trans-health-manifesto

Every time I see this, I am amused at how utterly bat shit it is.

Jesus effing Christ.

The person who wrote that needs urgent mental health support, not hormones or surgery.

But choosing your own pronouns also involves everyone else having to prop up that belief system. Certainly if you expect other people to use them.

You also seem to accept the principle/idea that some people " are trans" in the same way you might accept that some people are same sex attracted; rather than, for example, understand some people for whatever reason choose to believe, or act as if they are the opposite sex.

There are multiple reasons for adopting a trans identity - it is not equivalent to being same sex attracted at all.Being gender critical surely assumes that you undertand that being 'trans' is purely a social construction.

OK, I'll bite.

How do we ensure a solid understanding of the difference between sex and gender if (a) no one can define gender, and (b) people are using the same words that we use for their self identified gender identities that we use to describe biological sex?

If we let people call themselves whatever they want, some male people will call themselves female and vice versa. How does that aid anyone's understanding of the difference between sex and gender?

And how does it enable us to make rules about which spaces people are allowed to use or what healthcare needs they have?

Being gender critical surely assumes that you undertand that being 'trans' is purely a social construction.

Or a belief that they hold (or say they hold). I'd say that's different from it being a social construct because those that genuinely believe themselves to be a person whose body is mismatched with their "gender identity" will feel that it is as true as their sexual orientation.

I'd forgotten that! It's fab.

We demand nothing less than the total abolition of the clinic, of psychiatry, and of the medical-industrial complex. We demand an end to capitalist & colonialist "medicine".

We demand immediate release & pardon for all trans prisoners.

Oh and free voice coaching for all that doesn't change our voices too much!

Unfortunately, it is unlikely to be just the one person. That is just the Edinburgh chapter of a UK wide organisation.

I wouldn't have any issue with someone who did that.

But I have a general issue with the idea of "living as a man/woman". I don't know what that means. How would I live as a man?
Should I cut my hair? No, because women can have short hair.
Should I wear jeans and a t shirt? No, women can do that too.
Should I not wear make up? Again, women can do that too.
Should I take the bins out rather than cook dinners? Again, no.
Should I change my name? Well I already have a name generally seen as gender neutral. But names can be for anyone really - is Blake Lively's daughter James living as a man because she's called James? Of course not.

I don't see anyway of "living as a man" or "living as a woman" that doesn't require adhering to some degree of sexist stereotypes.
If someone grow puts on a skirt, heels and make up and says they're living as a woman, I question their view of women in general.

Where's that list of TRA contradictions?

One of them is surely the obsessing with being man, woman, or neither, yet being unable to differentiate between them.

https://www.thedistancemag.com/p/the-endless-contradictions-of-gender

I think the very concept of 'living as the opposite sex' is regressive and should be dismantled. Men can wear frocks if they want, and they can call themselves Nancy. They can put on fill make up and varnish their nails. That's not living as a woman. That's a person who wants to wear a frock, call themselves Nancy, wear make up and varnish their nails. It doesn't make them a woman any more than a woman not wearing make up, wearing jeans, not varnishing their nails and wanting to be called Jo makes a woman a man.

I don't think a civilised society should consider these people to be living as the opposite sex and I also don't think that a civilised society should accept a man demanding to be called 'she' - cultural appropriation and denial of female oppression is not something to be proud of.

Me too. In reality, when people say a TW is a W, the they are saying that I'm not. But I've been disadvantaged because of the material reality of my body. What kind of person pushes a real woman out the way to make way for a man who has decided to dress up in his internalised view of a stereotypical woman?

@lovelycosyslippers this article is worth a read, it looks at gender non-conformity across cultures and how this compares to the idea of 'trans' in our society: https://bprice.substack.com/p/trans-is-something-we-made-up

Shorter summary here: https://bprice.substack.com/p/what-do-i-mean-by-trans-is-something

I think the very concept of 'living as the opposite sex' is regressive and should be dismantled.

I agree. And our legislators were daft enough to enshrine this banal and meaningless axiom into actual law. What politician could stand and claim with all seriousness that this was a definable concept to base legislation on?

as i have said before: If people want to identify and "live as women" they should start in a more challenging environment than Western Europe or Northern America to see if it's what they really want. Parts of West Africa, Iran or Afghanistan spring to mind.