Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

[thedankness]

From TWAW, pro "sex-work", "kinky sex" and porn, plastic surgery, accepting low standards in relationships with men, being anti-abortion to more trivial things such as wearing heels, and yes, shaving, and so much more, so many women will defend these things to the hilt. They refuse/are unable to see how these things are bad for themselves and/or women generally, even after presented with arguments. Obviously some people will disagree with points made in an argument, but I just don't see men subjugating themselves en masse like I do women.

I feel sad. Why can't we as women just love ourselves and look out for ourselves? I feel like we are groomed into self-hate. Is the notion of female self-acceptance and worth truly so radical that a significant number can't even fathom it as a possibility for themselves?

Why is it so common for women to act against their interest? And can or should we do anything about it?

This is a bit poorly-worded, have thoughts but am interested to hear others' opinions.

That's because most women were married off by the time they were in their twenties.

Have to say I'm married, but cannot stand to use the title Mrs. I also use my own name. Maybe it's my age - but i grew up in the 1970's when women were certainly not embracing Mrs and change of surname upon marriage.

Anyway, my experience of teaching is that at secondary school, in the classroom, female teachers are referred to as 'Miss' and nobody has an issue with it.

My initial post may have given the impression I went to a particularly strict school, but it actually had a very incompetent head and was pretty undisciplined in most ways. There was no policy on what to call teachers. Men didn’t object to Sir or to title and surname. Women wanted title and surname and were usually quite fierce about it. I suppose they had to be.

I imagine that responses to to the use of titles for women will change across time and society - as attitudes towards women change. Maybe married women at that time in your area felt that using 'Miss' was disrespectful? The male teachers would never have been referred to as 'Mister'; they would have had the more respectful 'Sir' ( certainly at secondary).

I think that is why at one of the schools I taught at the children were trained to refer to the female teachers as 'Madam' , which was seen as being the female equivalent of 'Sir' and would also prepare pupils to refer to women respectfully within the community.

" Maybe married women at that time in your area felt that using 'Miss' was disrespectful? The male teachers would never have been referred to as 'Mister'; they would have had the more respectful 'Sir' ( certainly at secondary)."

Well, they may have been referred to as Mister Surname. They're not really comparable as Miss is a stand alone title as well as one that can be accompanied by a surname, as opposed to Mr and Mrs.

I agree, I think time is actually going to solve this one for us. We already seem to be moving to a world where titles are used much less often.

It's odd the way some feminists feel the need to respond to this existence of this type of misogyny being discussed by telling us where they rank it. I've yet to hear any woman who's subjected to it say they think it's more important than any of the other forms of sexism that get brought up in an attempt to minimise it. Much more time is spent dispelling this argument than making it.

There's a reluctance to allow it to be simply an experience of misogyny that some of us have and want to speak about. It has to be ranked, strawmanned at, frequently by people who it doesn't even happen to anyway. It's bizarre.

@TrashedSofa unfortunately things like these often do end up ranked, because those that less people care about are such an easy smoke screen to take attention away from more serious issues

Besides, this is my experience as much as it is yours, and I can say that to me this is absolutely a non-issue.

I was married before where I didn't change my name, sometimes I had to explain it, sometimes I still have to explain it ("have you ever been known by any other names?...but you were married before?") and I used to use Ms quite frequently back then too, so I think I can speak of my own experience.

The 'to me' is a new addition, although you're still talking about something you say you haven't experienced wrt misogyny based on use of Ms.

If what you actually mean is that you as an individual haven't experienced any detriment, by all means make that clear. But your problem is that you felt the need to rank the issue as a whole. That inherently includes the experiences of women who like me have experienced sexism on this basis. So that's an additional issue on top of the need to rank being a strawman in the first place.

@TrashedSofa isn't that the point of discussion? that people present their opinion?

im not denying that having to explain your name and title is a sign of sexism or that it is cause by inherent sexism in the system, what I am also saying is that I was never bothered by having to explain it

so based on my own experience I consider it a non-issue that with time will resolve itself

If people ask for my title ( by which they usually mean are you married ( Mrs) or not (Miss) I tend to say " I'm not bothered, whatever you like". I do find it a tedious question which creates the requirement for more effort than I'm prepared to put in.

I don't like 'Ms', and am not keen on 'Mrs' at all ( even though i submit to its use on occasion). Have to say I do prefer 'Miss'.

Isn’t the only feminist choice and your personal preference Mrs?
Do native speakers feel that they are technically’Miss’?

I’ve been wondering recently why it is that the convention that the man proposes marriage remains, but the convention that the bride chooses the date has disappeared.
It seems as though women can’t advance in one sphere without a backlash in another.

@WhatWouldJeevesDo I never even heard of custom of bride choosing the date. By the time weddings entered my mind the idea was that bride and groom agree upon everything together (if groom shows interest at all), but a man still has to propose. Otherwise woman is being a bit desperate, because clearly a bloke always tried to avoid comittment 🙄

It is, but there's a distinction between your opinion on an issue generally and you talking about what has happened to you. There are shitloads of problems that a woman could be utterly unaffected by on a personal level and yet not use this as a way to pronounce on the way in which other women experience them. If you are only saying it's a non-issue for you specifically, and you're as clear about is as you have been in your last two posts, that's fine but it's different to making broader statements.

Agree with you that the titles part in particular is likely to resolve itself with time, as titles themselves become less used. I'd still like not to experience misogyny because of it now though!

I should ask some native speakers actually.
My preference is Ms and between Miss and Mrs then yes I suppose the Mrs for everyone is what comes closest.
I also think Ms as a word was a bad choice as it's difficult to read and pronounce.

Regarding the large number of women who are supportive of gender ideology, to the extent that it is mainly women propping it up........I was watching an episode of " Billboard Pete" on you tube yesterday. He is the Canadian guy who goes around with a billboard which states " Children cannot consent to puberty blockers" - in order to stimulate debate and discussion.

It is almost always women who aggressively come up to confront, and I've realised that is because women are brought up to belive in the " truth" of feelings; that feelings are of over-riding importance, and that we must always listen to our own and others feelings, and give them priority or centre stage.

So, if a child "feels they are trans" then one must honour that and listen to them, and even believe in the truth of those feelings; to the extent of veryfying and validating those feelings.

The thing is, feelings are not really an indicator of truth. Feelings are passing and temporal states which are triggered by all manner of thing. Feelings are the person's learned response to the environment. Feelings can be triggered by thoughts and by associations. The thought, the memory, the association triggers a feeling response to some original stimuli.

Feelings re-play themselves throughout our day. We fel sad, we feel uncomfortable, we feel anxious, we feel frightened, we feel elated, we feel joy, we feel anticipation. sometimes we fixate on a feeeling and totally inhabit it, and by inhabiting it we make it more real and vivid. We believe our feeling is a true indicator of the state of the world and our place in it.

But if you stand back from feelings you can watch them play out, and you notice the sort of situations and associations which trigger them. They are real in that you feel them...but they are not a particularly reliable guide to healthy and balanced living - certainly if you always give them centre stage.

'Many women, I think, resist feminism because it is an agony to be fully conscious of the brutal misogyny which permeates culture, society, and all personal relationships.'
Andrea Dworkin

Women are indoctrinated from childhood with sexist ideology and it's very difficult to break away from this belief system - even if women are aware of the lies they are fed, they often have very little choices available to them. It's easier to play along if that means security for themselves and their children. Women with relative privilege (for example in the UK, as opposed to women in Afghanistan) could affect social change by rejecting relationships with men (or at least refusing to live with a man, living alone or with other women for example), seeking financial security, and not having children. Contraception is freely available in most of Europe and the UK. Real change requires personal sacrifice. The fairytale we are sold of a husband and kids as the ultimate life goal is a lie - it's a construct of patriarchy, designed to ensure men are taken care of from cradle to grave.

Many women, I think, resist feminism because it is an agony to be fully conscious of the brutal misogyny which permeates culture, society, and all personal relationships.'
Andrea Dworkin

I think that's very insightful. Like a good little woman, I married and changed my name- even though I knew the misogyny behind both practices - because I couldn't be bothered to fight it all my life.

I hear many friends complaining about husbands who do very little housework while they work and do housework. What can they do? Leave and do it all themselves anyway, but whilst a lot poorer? Women often don't see feminism as an answer.

@Whyisegg have you ever considered that women may not want what you've described?

i dont want to live in commune of amazons

My STFU was about when you try and impose your choices on other women:

“It’s when you try and impose your choices on other women, tell other women what surname they should choose or tell them their choice is anti feminist or feminist that I will always say, STFU…”

Imposing requires more than simply talking about your own choices.

“But it's not a matter of opinion that naming traditions and titles and the way we use them also impact other people. It's how they work. Nor is is a matter of opinion that the tradition of the woman taking the man's name on marriage is patriarchal.”

Disagree that these are facts.

Naming traditions and titles do not affect the status of women as a class, so have no bearing on feminism.

The Anglo-centric tradition of the woman taking the man’s surname upon marriage is Patrilineal not Patriarchal. These are often confused 🫤 as you have done.

? But having children was a life goal for my DH and I both. Why would I do all you tell me to do to “effect social change” that would create a society I’d be so miserable living in that I would rather jump off a bridge?

I like living with my DH/a man, we take care of each other and our children jointly. I wouldn’t want to be living with women my whole life span.

If that’s a life that appeals to you- no men, no children, living with women, go for it, but don’t presume to force that on all of us or pretend your choices are the enlighten ones and I’m just a mug who has believed sexist lies.

We often blame ourselves for being ‘good girls’ or the patriarchy when things go to shit. That’s the influence of the patriarchy imho.

A misogynist husband doesn’t mean that marriage is misogynist and society is to blame, hence feminism is the answer. Nor does it mean the woman screwed up by being a ‘good girl.’

The twat of a misogynist husband is to blame. Transferring the cause and responsibility of his actions to nebulous “the patriarchy” is the modern day equivalent of “an imp of Satan tempted me into sin”. It absolves men of agency and responsibility for their actions (or inaction if it’s housework 😉 )

A married woman leaving her husband has more rights and gets more financial support than an unmarried woman. So marriage isn’t misogynist because it provides protection from misogynist husbands.

What’s patriarchy is being convinced marriage is misogynist and as you aren’t like the ‘other girls’, you’d be feminist as an unmarried live in girlfriend when the reality is that sort of living arrangement usually benefits misogynist men.

@MercanDede I agree witch all of what you've said

and I would also add that people, despite all of the influence of our surroundings, are very much active participants in that society and we control our actions

That's why you can have two people growing up and living in the exactly the same environment and, despite sharing a lot of similarities, they will not have all the same values and beliefs.

That's why not every man runs away from housework and not every woman is this hard-working hero victimised by patriarchy

We all pick and choose what suits and bothers us

and before anyone shouts about how inheritance through a male line was unfair, please consider that European system of patrilineal system actually screwed over more men than women.

First-born sons were given majority of inheritance, daughters got dowry, subsequent sons got pat on the back and maaaaybe sent to be a priest if family could afford it.

Having to earn a living means being screwed over?

@WhatWouldJeevesDo back in those days not inheriting land from your parents meant you had to work for someone working their land, and by all means that meant being screwed over