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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Transphobic bullying is rife": 15 y/o trans boy's view of coming out at school

1000 replies

ButterflyHatched · 20/12/2023 17:44

A rare and refreshing example of the mainstream media actually publishing a young trans person's own words on the subject of their own existence and how the government's draft guidance is likely to affect the people it directly pertains to.

‘Transphobic bullying is rife’: a 15-year-old trans boy’s view of coming out at school | Transgender | The Guardian

‘Transphobic bullying is rife’: a 15-year-old trans boy’s view of coming out at school

Newton Carey gives his view after draft guidance was issued by the UK government

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/transphobic-bullying-trans-boy-view-of-coming-out-school-uk-government-guidance

OP posts:
Thread gallery
30
StragglyTinsel · 01/01/2024 11:08

Let’s face it, Butterfly’s story is more hole than bag. It holds absolutely no water whatsoever.

Butterfly is a total fantasist who, for some reason, has an agenda thar focuses around encouraging young people to undertake social, medical and surgical transition as early as possible. We could all speculate on why Butterfly might want that.

But it is absolutely obvious that the life story we are repeatedly told (in various ways with shifting details to fit the rhetoric) is a work of fiction. Let’s no fussyfoot around that. Butterfly is not the character they are playing on here.

PorcelinaV · 01/01/2024 11:11

It really seems to upset you that this young transitioner a. Exists b. Went on to have a happy and successful life and c. Is now able and willing to take the time to provide a long-term retrospective that dismantles the 'blockers are harmful, only lead to bad outcomes and should be banned' pack of lies.

We kind of need randomised controlled trials; not an anecdotal report that can't even be verified that someone has even taken them.

Helleofabore · 01/01/2024 11:15

ButterflyHatched · 01/01/2024 03:45

Incredible! You heard it here first, folks - apparently I'm a Young Adult novel protagonist. Or pretending to be one. Or something. Because the idea of a happy young transitioner with an associated genetic condition is apparently impossible to accept.

It really seems to upset you that this young transitioner a. Exists b. Went on to have a happy and successful life and c. Is now able and willing to take the time to provide a long-term retrospective that dismantles the 'blockers are harmful, only lead to bad outcomes and should be banned' pack of lies.

You'd better get used to it. More and more of us around the world gain access to treatment every year. While the culture war has tried to put the genie back in the bottle in the UK, it has only succeeded in delaying the inevitable (cruelly tormenting another generation of trans kids in the process). The UN-linked WHO's stance is clear and it won't be possible to ban us long-term, no matter how many contortions are made to make the findings of the Cass report appear to support the front page of the Daily Mail.

I will wear your disbelief with pride. "Too happy to be real." What a testament!

You are partially right, though - I did get very lucky. Many don't have the chances I did, and transphobic bullying is still an unfortunate reality for most transitioners at school.

There is so much we can do to help young trans people and protect them from the horrifying attitudes of people like Boy Y - Brianna Ghey's murderer - and others who want to ban them from public life and block them from accessing treatment.

The boy from the article I linked is not alone and he is not lying. I know so many young people who are staring down the barrels of the full force of the culture war and they are absolutely terrified. I had hoped, decades ago, that we'd have made it by now - but there is still so far to go.

Here's to hoping for a future where the idea of a happy young transitioner isn't met with spluttering disbelief.

Just repeating this note for readers.

Reader’s note:

Some trans activists with extreme views have positioned some feminists as ‘anti-trans’. Normally, a post such as this would be deleted by MnHq as it includes significant negative generalisations about MN FWR. However, as yet it is likely that no one has reported it.

This post has positioned careful statement of personal boundaries such as not believing that male people can ever be ‘women or girls’ and the constant discussion about how trans lobby groups have failed children and adolescents with the push for affirming only treatments as being ‘ideological’ and ‘anti-trans’.

When something is based directly and specifically on material reality, it is not ‘ideological’. This is a very dishonest statement made by this poster in the quoted post.

Also, to position the boundaries of female people as ‘anti-trans’ by logic makes the extreme trans position that ignores those boundaries as ‘misogynist’ and ‘anti-women and anti-girl’. It is just another fallacy spread by these extremists. They never evaluate their statements for such flaws.

If any child is going to have any medical condition that would impact their puberty, I would suspect by now that the condition would be testable, even just as puberty should be starting. Therefore, a male adult leveraging children’s potential medical conditions in the way this post indicates is a red flag for safeguarding for me. It is an indication that the adult is likely to be invested in these children’s ’gender identity’.

Particularly when considering this statement made by ButterflyHatched · 27/12/2023 12:14 :

I can actively help correct untruths and assumptions when they crop up and threaten to become additions to GC dogma while adding to the corpus of discussion on this site.

The information overwhelmingly provided by people on MN is evidence based and is in line with what independent child medical experts recommend.

Again, the framing as per this post is ludicrously based in this poster’s deeply entrenched prejudice about MN FWR and, hypocritically, their deep ideological beliefs. Because if independent child medical experts are disagreeing with this poster, it is yet another major safeguarding red flag.

No one should be bullied. No child or adolescent should be given a low standard of care by any organisation charged with their care. Particularly about their current and future health, mental and physical. No child should be failed by an evidence free or very low evidence based treatment because some heavily invested adults have demanded this.

This male adult is actively lamenting that currently the UK is carefully reviewing their treatment of children and adolescents with gender dysphoria. Apparently, this scrutiny is based in hate and has apparently set the UK backwards in this poster’s eyes. Because it seems that in this poster’s view, the UK shouldn’t be constantly reviewing the evidence OR the lack of evidence.

Again, as has been repeatedly pointed out, this male adult has never grasped that the majority of adolescents who are registered at the UK gender clinics (and others around the world) are now FEMALE. Not male. And female people have not been studied in any depth for their unique needs in this situation. A fact not acknowledged by this poster.

Puberty blockers have significant negative consequences for female bodies. Look up Lupron. The impacts on male bodies is bad enough but female bodies is life limiting and shortening. Yet, this poster has continue to advocate for them. And testosterone for the female body is also life limiting and life shortening, and this is also well documented by now. Read about the East German sports women.

However, even the authors of the Dutch Protocol have stated publically that there is doubt that this treatment plan is working for female adolescents because they have different needs and they are declaring trans identities for reasons different to male adolescents. Another fact ignored by this poster.

The direct impacts of past treatment on UK children and adolescents are apparently being researched by Dr Hilary Cass. Yet apparently the UK is, according to this person, the worst in the world. Yet is one of the only countries doing the hard research. I will leave it to readers to think about why a male adult who transitioned under the direct influence of a medical condition, apparently an unusual genetic issue, is advocating to any child or young person who is not experiencing that medical condition . Is it appropriate?

Here is the interim Cass report for readers to peruse for themselves.

https://cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/

Note, no peer reviewed evidence has been produced that shows an improvement long term for the gender dysphoria or the mental health of adolescents and child transitioners. None.

Here is a Dutch documentary released very recently discussing this:

And the reanalysed data from the UK child and adolescent gender clinics.

The newly released peer reviewed reanalysis of the UK study. McPherson & Freedman both worked on the initial analysis of the patient clinical data.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2023.2281986

Psychological Outcomes of 12–15-Year-Olds with Gender Dysphoria Receiving Pubertal Suppression in the UK: Assessing Reliable and Clinically Significant Change

Susan McPherson & David E. P. Freedman

Published online: 29 Nov 2023

Abstract

The evidence base for psychological benefits of GnRHA for adolescents with gender dysphoria (GD) was deemed “low quality” by the UK National Institute of Health and Care Excellence. Limitations identified include inattention to clinical importance of findings. This secondary analysis of UK clinical study data uses Reliable and Clinically Significant Change approaches to address this gap. The original uncontrolled study collected data within a specialist GD service. Participants were 44 12–15-year-olds with GD. Puberty was suppressed using “triptorelin”; participants were followed-up for 36 months. Secondary analysis used data from parent-report Child Behavior Checklists and Youth Self-Report forms. Reliable change results: 15–34% of participants reliably deteriorated depending on the subscale, time point and parent versus child report. Clinically significant change results: 27–58% were in the borderline (subclinical) or clinical range at baseline (depending on subscale and parent or child report). Rates of clinically significant change ranged from 0 to 35%, decreasing over time toward zero on both self-report and parent-report. The approach offers an established complementary method to analyze individual level change and to examine who might benefit or otherwise from treatment in a field where research designs have been challenged by lack of control groups and low sample sizes.

So, why is an adult male individual pushing their political agenda so hard and declaring anyone stating that there are issues as being ‘anti-trans’? A derogatory term and one framed in hate?

Who benefits from this male adult doing this?

Interim report – Cass Review

https://cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/

Helleofabore · 01/01/2024 11:15

Additional note: please notice that this post was completely ignored and none of the information was engaged with. Instead we have a male poster who medically transitioned, who admits that very little testing was done at the time and that included not even testing for any pubertal delays, advocating for children and teenagers to be given hormonal treatment that has now been shown to have low evidence of actually benefiting patients BUT has evidence of a multitude of immediate adverse effects and a history of long term issues.

Again, please note: this male poster is also advising FEMALE children and adolescents and has never even acknowledged they have different motivations for wishing to transition AND has actively dismissed the brutality of hormone treatments on the female body vs the male body. And the effects on male patients are bad enough.

StragglyTinsel · 01/01/2024 11:23

Maybe this is why Butterfly is so obsessed with making everything about existence. Because the character Butterfly has constructed doesn’t actually exist.

People who are lying often fixate on things and let the truth slip in various ways.

Note Butterfly: I know that trans people exist (in the sense that people who identify as the opposite sex are definitely real - and they are people just like the rest of us). that’s not up for debate. But the gender distressed boy who was treated by GIDS with puberty blockers a quarter of a century ago, had the most successful transition ever and is also “intersex” is a figment of your Imagination.

Datun · 01/01/2024 11:27

Helleofabore · 01/01/2024 11:15

Just repeating this note for readers.

Reader’s note:

Some trans activists with extreme views have positioned some feminists as ‘anti-trans’. Normally, a post such as this would be deleted by MnHq as it includes significant negative generalisations about MN FWR. However, as yet it is likely that no one has reported it.

This post has positioned careful statement of personal boundaries such as not believing that male people can ever be ‘women or girls’ and the constant discussion about how trans lobby groups have failed children and adolescents with the push for affirming only treatments as being ‘ideological’ and ‘anti-trans’.

When something is based directly and specifically on material reality, it is not ‘ideological’. This is a very dishonest statement made by this poster in the quoted post.

Also, to position the boundaries of female people as ‘anti-trans’ by logic makes the extreme trans position that ignores those boundaries as ‘misogynist’ and ‘anti-women and anti-girl’. It is just another fallacy spread by these extremists. They never evaluate their statements for such flaws.

If any child is going to have any medical condition that would impact their puberty, I would suspect by now that the condition would be testable, even just as puberty should be starting. Therefore, a male adult leveraging children’s potential medical conditions in the way this post indicates is a red flag for safeguarding for me. It is an indication that the adult is likely to be invested in these children’s ’gender identity’.

Particularly when considering this statement made by ButterflyHatched · 27/12/2023 12:14 :

I can actively help correct untruths and assumptions when they crop up and threaten to become additions to GC dogma while adding to the corpus of discussion on this site.

The information overwhelmingly provided by people on MN is evidence based and is in line with what independent child medical experts recommend.

Again, the framing as per this post is ludicrously based in this poster’s deeply entrenched prejudice about MN FWR and, hypocritically, their deep ideological beliefs. Because if independent child medical experts are disagreeing with this poster, it is yet another major safeguarding red flag.

No one should be bullied. No child or adolescent should be given a low standard of care by any organisation charged with their care. Particularly about their current and future health, mental and physical. No child should be failed by an evidence free or very low evidence based treatment because some heavily invested adults have demanded this.

This male adult is actively lamenting that currently the UK is carefully reviewing their treatment of children and adolescents with gender dysphoria. Apparently, this scrutiny is based in hate and has apparently set the UK backwards in this poster’s eyes. Because it seems that in this poster’s view, the UK shouldn’t be constantly reviewing the evidence OR the lack of evidence.

Again, as has been repeatedly pointed out, this male adult has never grasped that the majority of adolescents who are registered at the UK gender clinics (and others around the world) are now FEMALE. Not male. And female people have not been studied in any depth for their unique needs in this situation. A fact not acknowledged by this poster.

Puberty blockers have significant negative consequences for female bodies. Look up Lupron. The impacts on male bodies is bad enough but female bodies is life limiting and shortening. Yet, this poster has continue to advocate for them. And testosterone for the female body is also life limiting and life shortening, and this is also well documented by now. Read about the East German sports women.

However, even the authors of the Dutch Protocol have stated publically that there is doubt that this treatment plan is working for female adolescents because they have different needs and they are declaring trans identities for reasons different to male adolescents. Another fact ignored by this poster.

The direct impacts of past treatment on UK children and adolescents are apparently being researched by Dr Hilary Cass. Yet apparently the UK is, according to this person, the worst in the world. Yet is one of the only countries doing the hard research. I will leave it to readers to think about why a male adult who transitioned under the direct influence of a medical condition, apparently an unusual genetic issue, is advocating to any child or young person who is not experiencing that medical condition . Is it appropriate?

Here is the interim Cass report for readers to peruse for themselves.

https://cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/

Note, no peer reviewed evidence has been produced that shows an improvement long term for the gender dysphoria or the mental health of adolescents and child transitioners. None.

Here is a Dutch documentary released very recently discussing this:

And the reanalysed data from the UK child and adolescent gender clinics.

The newly released peer reviewed reanalysis of the UK study. McPherson & Freedman both worked on the initial analysis of the patient clinical data.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2023.2281986

Psychological Outcomes of 12–15-Year-Olds with Gender Dysphoria Receiving Pubertal Suppression in the UK: Assessing Reliable and Clinically Significant Change

Susan McPherson & David E. P. Freedman

Published online: 29 Nov 2023

Abstract

The evidence base for psychological benefits of GnRHA for adolescents with gender dysphoria (GD) was deemed “low quality” by the UK National Institute of Health and Care Excellence. Limitations identified include inattention to clinical importance of findings. This secondary analysis of UK clinical study data uses Reliable and Clinically Significant Change approaches to address this gap. The original uncontrolled study collected data within a specialist GD service. Participants were 44 12–15-year-olds with GD. Puberty was suppressed using “triptorelin”; participants were followed-up for 36 months. Secondary analysis used data from parent-report Child Behavior Checklists and Youth Self-Report forms. Reliable change results: 15–34% of participants reliably deteriorated depending on the subscale, time point and parent versus child report. Clinically significant change results: 27–58% were in the borderline (subclinical) or clinical range at baseline (depending on subscale and parent or child report). Rates of clinically significant change ranged from 0 to 35%, decreasing over time toward zero on both self-report and parent-report. The approach offers an established complementary method to analyze individual level change and to examine who might benefit or otherwise from treatment in a field where research designs have been challenged by lack of control groups and low sample sizes.

So, why is an adult male individual pushing their political agenda so hard and declaring anyone stating that there are issues as being ‘anti-trans’? A derogatory term and one framed in hate?

Who benefits from this male adult doing this?

I've given up on people like Helleofabore

Really? Shocked.

Quisse · 01/01/2024 11:27

FrippEnos · 01/01/2024 05:09

ButterflyHatched

Why are you bringing in Brianna Ghey?
Yes she was a trans girl that was murdered but she wasn't murdered because she was trans.
Or are you going to try a distastefully rewrite that history?

Boy Y is a good example of someone recently in the public eye who had a cruel transphobic attitude.

EasternStandard · 01/01/2024 11:27

Despite the pp on happiness for an individual it is to the detriment of women and children

So my proposed solution would be to keep sex based rights but expand the idea of men and women within those sex classes

We could have been striving for that since the GRA was introduced rather than this mess we have where women need to give access to men and children are indoctrinated by TRAs in schools

So I’ll take a vote to shift on this, and hope politicians will eventually listen

Datun · 01/01/2024 11:40

The boy from the article I linked is not alone and he is not lying. I know so many young people who are staring down the barrels of the full force of the culture war and they are absolutely terrified.

The girl from the article says

I was always very masculine when I was growing up telling my mum I didn’t want to wear dresses

I had always loved sport and won all the awards for football, rugby, tennis and I was always one of the boys. But when I came out, everybody rejected me and I didn’t feel confident playing sport any more.

She's not lying. But the lie is that she's not a girl because of it.

An outrageously sexist, damaging, patently nonsensical lie.

Adult males telling girls if they want to wear trousers and play footy there is something wrong with them and they need to be frightened of disagreement, is exactly what the government is addressing.

They have comprehensively grasped that trying to force young girls into this ideology undermines everything they've achieved. And it's just so that adult males can claim a 'female identity' for themself.

There isn't a single post you have made butterfly that indicates any respect for, affinity with, or even understanding of women and girls.

Because, and I think no-one is any doubt now, so well done, none of this is about women and girls.

Helleofabore · 01/01/2024 11:46

Also please note this particular part of this morning’s post.

You'd better get used to it. More and more of us around the world gain access to treatment every year. While the culture war has tried to put the genie back in the bottle in the UK, it has only succeeded in delaying the inevitable (cruelly tormenting another generation of trans kids in the process). The UN-linked WHO's stance is clear and it won't be possible to ban us long-term, no matter how many contortions are made to make the findings of the Cass report appear to support the front page of the Daily Mail.

This statement is very concerning in that it shows clearly what my long post was pointing out. This is a male poster, with a unique medical history who is applauding poorly informed policy by an organisation that has shown how they have very much ignored women and girl’s needs.

To be clear, this is more of that misogyny that gets denied.

Not only that, but this post shows clearly that this poster doesn’t seem to consider Dr Hilary Cass’ efforts to be worthy of respect. And that somehow, the UN will be able to ignore her work when she is finally finished with the ongoing research she has said she has started.

And yet, her work will merely add to the growing bank of other countries work where the medical treatment actively supported by this poster is being shown to be not delivering anywhere near the improvements to lives that biased activists demand people declare as certain fact.

Plus, isn’t it strange that a trans person doesn’t want open discussion on the findings of her work? Yet, every other group in society has to have their situation scrutinised and discussed as part of living in a democracy and allowing the public to decide what is for the overall good of the society they live in.

In depth discussion is where opinion is genuinely formed. Not the superficial opinion of scolders like soggy who seem to have nothing constructive to offer despite telling us there are solutions to be had. But real and abiding change requires democratic discussion.

Why does a mature ‘successful’ male not want real and abiding change backed by strong evidence?

TheClogLady · 01/01/2024 11:55

Happy and successful life or nervously hiding in the shadows, unable to travel with your dad?

Which is it, Butters? Because your life story as told to Mumsnet is rather incongruent.

Datun · 01/01/2024 12:15

TheClogLady · 01/01/2024 11:55

Happy and successful life or nervously hiding in the shadows, unable to travel with your dad?

Which is it, Butters? Because your life story as told to Mumsnet is rather incongruent.

Just a bit!

You are partially right, though - I did get very lucky.

and it won't be possible to ban us long-term, no matter how many contortions are made to make the findings of the Cass report appear to support the front page of the daily Mail.

It really seems to upset you that this young transitioner a. Exists b. Went on to have a happy and successful life

Is now able and willing to take the time to provide a long-term retrospective that dismantles the 'blockers are harmful, only lead to bad outcomes and should be banned' pack of lies.

But also

When you spend a lifetime in a well of almost complete, crushing isolation, unable to speak to anyone other than medical gatekeepers

Oh I've definitely had a whole host of health issues - they're a regular topic of discussion with my GP

I'm on three different types of lifelong medication directly associated with side effects of my transition, alongside one that outright would have prevented me from being able to pursue treatment had I been on it at the time. I've a healthy dose of gallows humour regarding the sword of damocles hanging over me after 20 years of HRT, and the likelihood of life-changing implications in the decades to come.

An adult male transitioner, who is 'very lucky' and should be consulted about their valuable experience, but feels the need to denigrate Hilary Cass (one of our country's foremost paediatricians), who has been happy and successful, but also lead a life of complete isolation, who doesn't see the harm in puberty blockers, but is simultaneously living under the sword of Damocles healthwise.

Someone's confused. And it's not the women of mumsnet, Hilary Cass, or Kemi Badenoch.

TheClogLady · 01/01/2024 12:20

How sad, Butters wants healthy-bodied children to have a whole host of totally unnecessary, life long health problems.

Datun · 01/01/2024 12:36

TheClogLady · 01/01/2024 12:20

How sad, Butters wants healthy-bodied children to have a whole host of totally unnecessary, life long health problems.

I mean, for the love of God, if you're going to set yourself up as an expert on child transition, keep your fucking story straight.

'blockers are harmful, only lead to bad outcomes and should be banned' pack of lies.

I've a healthy dose of gallows humour regarding the sword of damocles hanging over me after 20 years of HRT

RedToothBrush · 01/01/2024 12:38

ButterflyHatched · 01/01/2024 02:39

Hope your sibling is doing well! Sounds like they had a lot more tests than I had when I presented to GIDS nearly a quarter of a century ago. I've never had a brain scan and only had some very basic blood tests to ensure it was safe to be placed on Blockers at the time.

I can't tell whether you are misgendering them or not. Hopefully not as that doesn't sound like a good foundation for a positive family relationship.

Do you talk much? Have you disclosed your ideological stance toward trans people? Was their transition the catalyst for you developing these views, or did you only develop them later - and if so, how do they feel about how you've changed and how that changes the dynamic of your relationship?

The absolute nerve of asking me a single question or telling me what I should or shouldnt do. How absolutely dare you try and control me.

You haven't got the courtesy to answer any of the many questions relating to the actual subject of this thread or address the points others have directly asked multiple times so why in god's name should I indulge you with replies?

Datun · 01/01/2024 12:56

The absolute nerve of asking me a single question or telling me what I should or shouldnt do. How absolutely dare you try and control me.

As straggly accurately described

"It’s like reading one of those dreadful YA novels where the main character is the most super special person in the history of people and the entire universe revolves around them. They’re uniquely perfect at everything and always have extra reasons why they’re more special than anyone else."

it really is like that. Their opinion is paramount, and therefore putting you on the stand is an act of heroism, not an attempt at dominance.

Helleofabore · 01/01/2024 12:59

Datun · 01/01/2024 12:36

I mean, for the love of God, if you're going to set yourself up as an expert on child transition, keep your fucking story straight.

'blockers are harmful, only lead to bad outcomes and should be banned' pack of lies.

I've a healthy dose of gallows humour regarding the sword of damocles hanging over me after 20 years of HRT

And again, only ever the male transition perspective.

Never, Never the female transition perspective acknowledged to be life limiting and life shortening with hormonal and surgical treatments. Never.

And we are apparently recalcitrant toddlers for keeping this front of mind for the readers. And we apparently are not supposed to recognise misogyny when it is disguised as a ‘woman’s misogyny’.

Misogyny, resting on negative sexist discrimination. And some of these posters really cannot believe we can pick male discrimination again female people from posts. It is like…. I don’t know, it is like some people think just saying they are women makes them experts on the lives of women and girls. … gosh! Whodathunkit that they are not! That they retain all that male entitlement and privilege despite them desperately claiming women’s oppression.

How fucking feminist, eh!

PaperWalkAndTalk · 01/01/2024 14:12

Usually when people have a medical or mental health issue they would say that "they wouldn't want to wish this on anyone else", yet for this issue there seems to be a desire to trans as many people as possible.

Gender dysphoria is a real psychological issue (regardless of whether they fit the homosexual or heterosexual Blanchard models), but why the desire to get others to experience it?

I think it comes from a rather self-centred belief to try to reinforce one's self perception (which in therapeutic terms is dangerous). If more people are trans then it reinforces your own concept of transgender, and that you made the correct decision to transition. That is why detransitions face a devastating reality, and the activists don't want to engage with the "heretics", as they would have to face up to reality.

It's not about helping others, it's about reinforcing your own beliefs and self-image.

RedToothBrush · 01/01/2024 14:19

PaperWalkAndTalk · 01/01/2024 14:12

Usually when people have a medical or mental health issue they would say that "they wouldn't want to wish this on anyone else", yet for this issue there seems to be a desire to trans as many people as possible.

Gender dysphoria is a real psychological issue (regardless of whether they fit the homosexual or heterosexual Blanchard models), but why the desire to get others to experience it?

I think it comes from a rather self-centred belief to try to reinforce one's self perception (which in therapeutic terms is dangerous). If more people are trans then it reinforces your own concept of transgender, and that you made the correct decision to transition. That is why detransitions face a devastating reality, and the activists don't want to engage with the "heretics", as they would have to face up to reality.

It's not about helping others, it's about reinforcing your own beliefs and self-image.

Absolutely everything about it is self centered and to the exclusion of the interests or well-being of others. The me, me, me factor once you see it, you can't unsee it.

Helleofabore · 01/01/2024 14:26

I think it comes from a rather self-centred belief to try to reinforce one's self perception (which in therapeutic terms is dangerous). If more people are trans then it reinforces your own concept of transgender, and that you made the correct decision to transition.

Yes. Hence partially why male transgender people make use of female trans people. Particularly teenagers and children.

Hence why male transgender people actively support female people undergoing such brutal hormone and surgical treatments and never acknowledge the effects to the female body.

It needs to be said on every single page. This is part of that misogyny we keep talking about. Eventually it must start clicking into place for all those who declare posters bullies. That the harms are being denied by heavily invested adults and this is one massive fucking safeguarding scandal.

OldCrone · 01/01/2024 14:37

Usually when people have a medical or mental health issue they would say that "they wouldn't want to wish this on anyone else", yet for this issue there seems to be a desire to trans as many people as possible.

This is why they insist that it's not a medical or mental health issue, but they never explain why this condition which isn't a medical condition requires special medical treatment. If it's not a medical or mental health condition, what are they treating with this medical treatment? Healthy people who don't have a medical condition don't need medical treatment.

So if they don't have a mental health issue or a medical condition, then children who have this condition which isn't medical don't need to be cured. However they do need medical treatment to treat this condition which isn't a mental health issue or a medical condition. And we should celebrate them having this condition which isn't a mental health issue or a medical condition and which requires lifelong medication and major surgery with a high rate of complications which results in them being sterilised and having impaired sexual function. We absolutely shouldn't try to cure them so that they don't need all this medical treatment because that would be bigoted.

None of this makes any sense at all.

Tallisker · 01/01/2024 14:38

I read a heart-felt story from a detransitioner who said he became an absolute nightmare to work with when undergoing transition in the first place. He said he saw transphobia everywhere, was hyper alert to anything that could be seen as the slightest, tiniest bit negative and how everyone around him was walking on eggshells. He ended up being quite isolated because his behaviour was so atrocious, people just avoided him.

We see it replicated on here. Really poor behaviour and no attempt to listen, to empathise, to learn. I'm sure so-called transphobia is absolutely on the rise, but it's down to the behaviour of trans identifying individuals that make others wary of them. People back away and keep their heads down so as not to incur the wrath. I have a situation at work at the moment where I and colleagues are being stalked online for everything we say or write by a particularly anti-woman trans rights activist, so we can be reported, disciplined and hopefully sacked. The union is on his side, HR people have pronouns in their email signatures, it's a genuinely unsafe environment.

RedToothBrush · 01/01/2024 14:55

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

HoneyButterPopcorn · 01/01/2024 15:12

A ‘trans grenade’. Sums it up nicely.

I think a lot of families have ‘one’ complete a-hole who makes everyone walk around on eggshells until their little sister snaps and bops them on the nose. Hypothetically of course

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