Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Transphobic bullying is rife": 15 y/o trans boy's view of coming out at school

1000 replies

ButterflyHatched · 20/12/2023 17:44

A rare and refreshing example of the mainstream media actually publishing a young trans person's own words on the subject of their own existence and how the government's draft guidance is likely to affect the people it directly pertains to.

‘Transphobic bullying is rife’: a 15-year-old trans boy’s view of coming out at school | Transgender | The Guardian

‘Transphobic bullying is rife’: a 15-year-old trans boy’s view of coming out at school

Newton Carey gives his view after draft guidance was issued by the UK government

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/transphobic-bullying-trans-boy-view-of-coming-out-school-uk-government-guidance

OP posts:
Thread gallery
30
Tallisker · 01/01/2024 15:17

Arabella** interesting article and all too familiar.

Red it's so hard to know what's coming and not being able to say anything. But I'm damn sure the same dynamics are being played out across the land at the moment.

I know someone whose late-teen son transitioned just as her tween daughter hit puberty, his transition into a 'woman' coinciding directly with her actually 'becoming a woman' - how crap is that? now the daughter is non-binary and has one of the usual gender-neutral names. Neither child ever showed any sign of any distress about their sex until very recently. The family tensions are difficult.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/01/2024 15:47

ArabellaScott · 31/12/2023 10:33

It's really quite depressing how many men truly do hate women. And this movement is a magnet to them.

Yes. It's a pulsing, seething mess of woman hatred. Rage and disgust and contempt for women is the stuff this whole movement is built on. Once you see it it's all rather grimly obvious.

This.

SabrinaThwaite · 01/01/2024 15:50

So glad I read RTB’s post before the monitors got to it.

Guess the truth hurts.

Datun · 01/01/2024 16:00

SabrinaThwaite · 01/01/2024 15:50

So glad I read RTB’s post before the monitors got to it.

Guess the truth hurts.

I missed it. Can you gist it for me, without breaking guidelines?

Mushroomsouptonight · 01/01/2024 16:05

arethereanyleftatall · 20/12/2023 18:14

What would have helped this poor girl enormously, is if the idiot adults supposed to be looking out for her, had never told her she was in the wrong body in the first place.

This

HoneyButterPopcorn · 01/01/2024 16:15

Datun · 01/01/2024 16:00

I missed it. Can you gist it for me, without breaking guidelines?

A family member becomes difficult to deal with, and family and friends end up having to walk on eggshells so as to not set off WW3 with imaginary insults.

SabrinaThwaite · 01/01/2024 16:15

Datun · 01/01/2024 16:00

I missed it. Can you gist it for me, without breaking guidelines?

Pretty much that having a trans identifying young adult in the family is enormously demanding on every other family member, with potentially disastrous effects on family dynamics.

RedToothBrush · 01/01/2024 16:30

Datun · 01/01/2024 16:00

I missed it. Can you gist it for me, without breaking guidelines?

I honestly do not know why its banned to talk about how it throws a grenade into lives and theres patterns. Give things time. Someone will eventually study the impact on families properly and I don't think it will be pretty.

The Beaumont Society itself at one point did a study on how many transwidows had psychological breakdowns as a result of what happened to them. This is long forgotten in memories too. (Its been fully referenced, sourced and quoted on MN before).

My point was about how its so often NOT the family that reject someone, its the person that rejects the family.

The fact my brother was TOLD this by a trans support charity that its often the person that rejects the family not the other way around in 2006 is quite telling. They were told it wasn't uncommon, because the family are always the ultimate reminder of the past, and this is very hard to deal with - not because the family are in anyway bad. But this ISN'T part of understanding now.

Instead we have this narrative that demonises family who don't flog themselves into unquestioning acceptance and they get told they should tolerate behavior that they wouldn't accept in any other situation and they get labelled as bigotted if they don't.

There is a massive culture of silence and taboo around this. The dam will burst eventually.

Fascinating to see deletions on people talking about first hand experiences though.

SabrinaThwaite · 01/01/2024 16:38

I’m not even sure what MN guidelines RTB’s post broke. It seems that only some personal experiences are allowed to be valid.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/01/2024 16:49

I think this an interesting point of contention. I do think a very large fraction of society would take your stance, hence no real empathy towards this group, and no will for real solutions.

I'm seeing plenty of empathy for them, and not so much for women and girls, to be honest.

I do agree that most people on both sides of the argument and those who are ambivalent don't actually believe that "trans people" are the opposite sex, and I'm tired of being gaslighted that they do.

RedToothBrush · 01/01/2024 17:10

I think the article about reverse CBT and excessive online useage is VERY illuminating too.

It talks about Tumblr being the Petri Dish for Disempowering Beliefs dating it back to the early 2010s, saying "Tumblr was different from Facebook and other sites because it was not based on anyone's social network; it brought together people from anywhere in the world who shared an interest, and often an obsession".

It didn't originate from Tumblr at all. Tumblr might have been where it became mainstream but it was there a long time before then.

I've been in online communities since 1998 - this was way before they became common - the one I was initially in was an online forum for a common interest in music. It was one of the first 10,000 such sites in the world I believe. By 2004 I'd met over 200 in real life from this community. There were numerous people who ended up married from it. This predates online dating. I later was in communities of a similar nature relating to gaming. My brother was a similar early adopter. Some of it was great. Some of it was so incredibly toxic and I have more than a couple of stories of where it was truly awful and somewhat disturbing. The reason I ended up on MN in the first place around 2007/8 was precisely because I was so jaded by the toxic nature of these communities and the level of misogny in them. I'd gone through a period of several years by that point of being a male online because it was so bad. (This made things more complicated when meeting people in real life or coming clean about who you really were). The online gaming communities were the worst. You'd be playing community games and not get taken seriously by the guys or youd be sexually targetted by them and it just ruined your experience. The levels of toxic masculinity were something else. Often being pushed by boys in their late teens rather than some of the older community members. I should add that by this point, I was in my early 30s and been around the block - I'd already been through my late teens, early twenties lamenting the fact that I wished I'd been a boy as girls looked shit with guitars - and I was in a solid relationship to someone I eventually got round to marrying. Some of the stuff that DH and I both saw going on with girls age 13/14 at the time was utterly dreadful. Imagine growing up in that? I at least started into it at age 19.

My point here, is I'm over 25 years down the line on some of this, and you've got academics talking about how it started just 10 years ago.

Thats kinda utter bollocks - these people aren't going back into the history. Huge amounts come directly from gaming and the exclusion of women from being equal in gaming.

Its something I have occasionally talked about in the past on MN and hardly something I'm just picking up on having read that article. I've been there since the start. From Dial Up.

NO ONE talks about it. No one has sought to look at this holistically about what change, where, why and the impact on it. NO ONE has bothered to ask the women who have lived through it. Just look at what happened with Gamergate.

Why is that? Why is there these huge silences and gaps in the sociology on this? Instead we get all this stuff from men about what we should do for girls in school and guff about why they have transitioned based upon their own male experiences. But never through the lens of women and girls and the pressures placed on them.

I am BEYOND frustrated with IT ALL on sooooo many levels. I feel like I'm walking in a parallel reality, where the truth slowly but surely is dripping through and people are waking up, but far too slowly.

MidsomerMurmurs · 01/01/2024 17:26

@RedToothBrush NO ONE talks about it. No one has sought to look at this holistically about what change, where, why and the impact on it. NO ONE has bothered to ask the women who have lived through it. Just look at what happened with Gamergate

To his credit, I think Glinner does talk about this connection. Perhaps not with quite the time-depth you mention, but I’m sure I’ve seen him discussing this.

PaperWalkAndTalk · 01/01/2024 17:27

We see it consistently that all LGBT+ (and I deliberately include the LGB) should move away from their families and into this "chosen family", the BBC even had an article promoting the ideology last week.

I've no doubt people were rejected from their families decades ago, but it seems like they've taken that concept and use that as leverage for today. It's the attempt to get people into echo chambers, and particularly with trans activism we've seen many real trans people rejected from groups for speaking truth on the matter (those known as "truscum").

RufustheFactualReindeer · 01/01/2024 17:29

A young adult i know ‘transitioned’ over the last few years and has just had his penis inverted

pre ‘transition’ had various mental health issues including anorexia

one of his young adult brothers has been cross dressing and is thinking of ‘becoming trans’

the family has had no help at all through this…its just expected that they should be supportive and happy that they now have a daughter/sister

no one has helped this young lad

its fucking tragic

and I firmly believe that the oldest boy was groomed online by utter fantasists

TheClogLady · 01/01/2024 17:37

and I firmly believe that the oldest boy was groomed online by utter fantasists

I think we can all agree that there is an awful lot of that about, sadly.

Fingers crossed the older child will be able to warn the younger sibling against transition. You can’t change sex but unfortunately way too many people get their genitalia amputated before they come to understand this.

StragglyTinsel · 01/01/2024 17:42

@RedToothBrush i did some research pre-2010 that looked at online communities to some degree. An interesting thing about trying to publish that research was that the peer reviewers always turned out to be ‘fan-academics’ who were incredibly defensive about the communities, the behaviour of the people within them and keen to police how they were described.

That aspect of things has definitely gotten worse.

Datun · 01/01/2024 17:44

Thanks for your explanation red and others. I think I did see that post. And there was nothing delete worthy about it.

Anyone who as even skimmed the transwidows threads or children of transitioners, or read one of the hundreds of narratives, knows exactly how, er, egg shells are deployed.

I mean, bloody hell, it's hardly a secret.

It happens across the board.

TheClogLady · 01/01/2024 17:44

was that the peer reviewers always turned out to be ‘fan-academics’ who were incredibly defensive about the communities, the behaviour of the people within them and keen to police how they were described.

There is an awful lot of that about too!

RedToothBrush · 01/01/2024 18:17

Power in early online communities came down to two things - the actual moderators and the self appointed social moderators. Often the actual moderators were part of the social community so you had this cross over.

As my university lecturer taught me about traditional censorship - who censors the censors and what happens if they have very different ideas about right and wrong to you? He made the following point (this was 1997) to the effect of "Im sure many of you would like to ban lots of things such as the Daily Mail cos you are young and leftie and don't like certain things but sometimes you need to appreciate that you need right wing voices and the opinions of people like this chain smoker and one day you might really need the Daily Mail". His speciality was politics and propaganda...

But online we had all these communities growing up where the moderators had this huge amount of power and social status. If your face didn't fit it was easier to drive you off a site or simply be banned from it. And then you had crowds of suck ups around the moderators (often looking to become mods themselves).

Power struggles were common. You had to learn to navigate saying things in a certain way and not upsetting certain people.

It was fine if you had moderators who were patient and tolerant. But some, went power crazed and there'd be clear abuses of power. It was informal and totally unregulated. No one was looking at who the moderators were.

Now we have paid moderation for most of the big social media sites which tends to separate members and users and there's much clearer and formalised community rules which are generally written down. But these paid jobs are also naturally going to attract certain types of people to them. And it's overwhelmingly not women. And there's absolutely no transparency on this.

This is essentially the thing that governments across the world still haven't got to grips with - we've only just had the Online Harms Act in 2023. And this really doesn't even start to touch the sides. Partly because these communities are international so laws in one country might mean that someone is beyond the the jurisdictions of another.

One woman I know (and still very occasionally talk to) ended up with a situation where someone she was in an online relationship he turned really nasty saying all sorts about her to the whole community. He harassed her online, contacted her family and her employer in the process. She went to the police but because this person was in Canada there was fuck all they could do. He was really abusive and aggressive. This was what 2005ish if I recall correctly. How much further have we moved with this kind of stuff?

Everyone seems to suggest this type of shit is much more recent than it actually is. The amount of inactivity politically on this is shocking. We think it's new to teens now. It's just not. It's just happening on a massive scale now and we haven't remotely got our heads around it.

And it always comes back to this when it comes to MN because you have a community with moderation and moderators which is isn't the same as others and this isn't liked. The moderators are mainly female for starters.

It is COMPLETELY relevant to what's happening to girls at school because it's about gatekeepers, decision makers and social pressures. None of whom are centring the interests of girls - it's not considering the sexualisation of girls, it's not considering rising sexism and conformity online, it's not considering the impact of echo chambers, it's not considering the lack of power in online communication for women and then there's the dominance of men in LGBT charities and the sidelining and ostracisation of lesbian voices. It is not a coincidence it is happening at the same time.

BezMills · 01/01/2024 19:02

Great Post @RedToothBrush

RedToothBrush · 01/01/2024 19:12

It hasn't ceased to amaze me the degree to which anime avatars and dressing in a style similar to Japanese female characters dominates.

If it were about being the opposite sex, why would there be such a narrow presentation style?

That suggests it's a cultural identity in some way not an innate thing going on.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/01/2024 19:32

RedToothBrush · 01/01/2024 19:12

It hasn't ceased to amaze me the degree to which anime avatars and dressing in a style similar to Japanese female characters dominates.

If it were about being the opposite sex, why would there be such a narrow presentation style?

That suggests it's a cultural identity in some way not an innate thing going on.

Excellent point that I've never thought about in that way before.

HoneyButterPopcorn · 01/01/2024 19:38

True. I don’t see many young folks dressed like Japanese schoolboys.

RedToothBrush · 01/01/2024 19:40

Re: estrangement and the deletion. Regulars will be aware of the long running thread of a mum who desperately wanted a relationship with her daughter and what happened with her girlfriend and GFS mother...

RedToothBrush · 01/01/2024 19:40

HoneyButterPopcorn · 01/01/2024 19:38

True. I don’t see many young folks dressed like Japanese schoolboys.

I believe there is a thing amongst trans men for K-pop type look actually.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread