Guilty verdict in Brianna Ghey case

[RoyalCorgi]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/20/brianna-ghey-found-guilty-murder

Not a surprise - it felt very clear-cut.

When a child has died under horrific circumstances, what some people like to do here, is to obliquely imply that said child was confused about who they really were.

A very normal thing to do you see

Brianna was the actual victim, but I wonder what is happening to the other children who were on the list? Will they get justice?

I wonder if there is now a case to seek a conviction for the plot to murder a different child a few weeks earlier? If prosecutors (like a number on here are demanding) focused entirely on the presumption of transphobia, it would be rather hard to seek prosecution in regards to plots to murder the four other children who were not transgender.

There seems to be little thought given to the other four children.

Well, thanks to Dawn Butler, this thread is in the Daily Mail. Apparently, Justine Roberts has asked her for specific posts, which are transphobic.

I can't see it lasting much longer.

I wish this thread was closed.

It's being used to further the agenda of adults who want to use the narrative that trans adults are the most incredibly vulnerable group.

The reality is that children are extremely vulnerable. All children.

Children with SEND are especially so, as victims, especially if they are female. Sexual abuse and exploitation of children with SEND is huge. The latest target for county lines. Also, as clearly in this case, in need of a great deal of extra supervision.

Threads appeared on the sex and gender board initially as there was confusion over the sex of the child. Murders of females are often discussed here within the context of general violence against women and girls.

Sex matters

I'm still flummoxed by the notion that if I know someone's sex, it means I think they no longer exist. I missed that bit of Philosophy in school, or perhaps it was in Physics.

I really hope this doesn't derail a thread with lots of interesting contributions about safeguarding. What could have stopped Girl X on her terrifying journey to cold-blooded murder?

I don't know much about the case but there were clearly a lot of red flags much earlier.

The irony.

Not one post I have seen has disrespected Brianna, you know, Brianna the actual person. I've seen nothing but compassion for a vulnerable child killed. What you want is to police women's words and beliefs, and you are using the murder of a child to try to force women to toe your line.

I can respect Brianna and also not believe humans change sex. Your demands for obedience to your beliefs are disrespectful to Brianna and to the women whose words you are trying to control. It is you who is lacking basic human decency.

Interesting from the daily mail.

In a further statement to MailOnline, Mumsnet founder and CEO Justine Roberts said: 'Our forum guidelines are pretty clear. We allow legal discussion, which sometimes means people will make comments that individuals don't agree with or like.

'We specifically disallow hate speech and deliberately inflammatory posts and we have an active moderation team who respond, on average in under an hour, to complaints about posts.

'It's somewhat ironic that Ms Butler chose to post her attack on Mumsnet on X (formerly Twitter) which regularly hosts comments that wouldn't last a moment on Mumsnet and where the moderation is light touch at best.

'We see this kind of double standard a lot and I'm beginning to wonder if it might be because Mumsnet is the only major platform dominated by women's voices.'

indeed.

Well said Justine.

@loveanafter8 I'm genuinely confused as to what I've said that you think is incorrect. Could you paste it into a post? I haven't said anything about my beliefs, I've called people out for lying. What do you think my views are that are wrong?

I can't see anywhere that we disagree except that you think someone's existence can be invalidated, whatever that means, and I don't, or don't understand what you mean by it.

I'm beginning to wonder if it might be because Mumsnet is the only major platform dominated by women's voices.

*who say #notthankyou to men

A lot.

I have known a few children over the years who have ended up with a forensic psychiatry assessment. The assessments are always excellent; I find the psychiatrists who do them to be thorough, analytical, challenging and not afraid to describe abnormal behaviour if it is present.

The issue is then what to do with the child. They are inevitably sent back to their local mental health services who just have to manage. And I think it’s because no one really has any idea what to do with them.

Scrap that Extra t. I'm baking

I hope one day scientists study the level of delusion you’ve created instead of just being respectful.

if you truly think I’m trying to control how others write or making them ‘toe the line’ by asking someone to use her pronouns and not belittle who she was to a mere belief for the time they are in this thread discussing her murder then I don’t really know what to say other than I hope you get the help you so clearly need.

what you do or how you feel outside of this thread is your business, but while you’re discussing the horrific murder of a girl who had her whole life ahead of her, knowing her parents can likely see this, you’d think you’d want to be respectful but I guess I’m the fool for having so much faith in humanity.

Some really pertinent points from the usual posters on this thread, and a couple of argumentative ones looking for a fight.

I'm a realist, I might want to believe I'm taller, younger etc but it wouldn't make it true, I believe that if you're unhappy in your skin that needs to be investigated but nobody 'feels' like a woman, it's a biological reality.
You might enjoy stereotypically female things without being female but you are widening the social boundaries of your sex, not changing it.
That is my belief, I've yet to see convincing scientific arguments otherwise.

Belief is an appropriate word to use.

This thread was somewhat of a continuation of the last one, which was respectful, called Brianna "she", was a genuine discussion about what could have led two children to plan and carry out such a horrific crime.

It was right to shut that down due to one person's persistent comments about speculation of the killers' identities when the trial was going on. (Not whether they were "valid" but their names. There seems to be a lot of confusion about what "identity" means).

I think this one has run its course tbh. Lots of people muddled over what has actually been posted.

Thanks for your insights @WarriorN

You're doing it as well, it's like you can't help yourself, your aversion to trans people is so strong that even the death of a child isn't enough to make you stand back and think "is this a normal thing to say in response to this?"

The issue is then what to do with the child. They are inevitably sent back to their local mental health services who just have to manage. And I think it’s because no one really has any idea what to do with them.

Exactly.

Which is the part that everyone is NOT talking about.

It needs funding. Extremely knowledgeable professional input. Which could also be the teachers and TAs they see daily at specialist schools.

But that needs training, funding, buildings etc. (TAs definitely don't get paid enough.)

I'm flabbergasted that Dawn doesn't recognise any of this.

But it's easier and cheaper to lay the blame elsewhere, of course. Notably at the feet of women. Again.

I'm reminded of how homophobes will often declare gay people and their internal identities and self as either intrinsically deluded or a "belief" system that they've bought into or been forcibly exposed/indoctrinated into. Even more so if they're kids who are gay.

You see the same logic here in this thread, on this forum, it might be typed up with more "nice words" to hide what they're really driving at, but it's there.

"Self-Identified"
"Gender Identity belief"
"Social contagion"

I'm sure the attempts to coerce women on this thread, who have mostly spoken with respect for Brianna as a 16 year old child who was the completely innocent victim of two callous 15 year old children, to obey the controlling demands of trans activists are fairly obvious to anyone without an agenda. I agree that this thread has been hijacked to push that agenda.

Can you hear yourself? 'If you truly think I'm trying to control how others write...by asking someone to change their language and say things they don't believe'. You are trying to control others. You've decided it's in a good cause but it's still what you're doing.

I don't think lying or expecting others to lie is a sign of respect. I can respect others beliefs without sharing them. Can you?

Again, you posit yourself and your "friends" as victims here, it's like you can't help yourself.

How can you claim to respect someone whilst claiming what they know about themselves is intrinsically wrong and that you somehow know better than they do? This is the same reheated argument homophobes use

Agree with this. Brianna's murder wasn't the fault of the Tories, or feminists, or anyone really except the killers themselves.

There are definitely hard questions to be asked about things like adolescent mental health and also how teenagers are accessing the kind of material that Girl X was looking at on the dark web. But Mary Bell and Jon Venables and Robert Thompson committed horrific murders long before the internet so it can't all be blamed on the dark web. Brianna was just really unlucky.

I've just watched Esther Ghey's video statement and I can't believe how much courage and grace she has shown.

This is the third or fourth one. I don't know why a thread about concerns about child safeguarding would go on the gender critical board? If there wasn't a trans person involved?