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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Packituppackitinletmebegin · 22/12/2023 10:34

RedToothBrush · 22/12/2023 10:32

Except that's part of the national conversation generally anyway because of wider safeguarding concerns.

How can you remove this case from that vacuum ?

You cant. It's impossible. This isn't transphobic. This isn't uncaring. This isn't heartless.

This is the moment in time we live in, where we are trying to assess why the hell we've seen an abnormal spike in behaviour which in other scenarios would lead to safeguarding concerns because of the social contagion element to it.

The concern is that in looking at trans we fail to see the other vulnerabilities that trans identifying kids have and we fail to try and help them 'because trans'.

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You're doing it as well, you just can't help yourself.

RedToothBrush · 22/12/2023 10:35

flaffydaffy · 22/12/2023 10:33

"There is no clear background of targeted emotional bullying directly at Brianna which escalated (the transphobic comments were not used TO Brianna. They were used about Brianna which makes it slightly more difficult). Indeed the opposite seems true - Brianna thought girl x was a friend and the girl seems to have liked Brianna."

@RedToothBrush this is such a stilted and unnatural way of communicating just to avoid using any pronouns whatsoever. You don't want to give Brianna any respect by using "she" but "he" would make you look awful so you say "Brianna" 5 times in 3 sentences.

I can communicate however I feel happy.

Sorry I believe pronouns are used in a way that are harmful to all.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 10:36

In terms of sentencing, I'm not sure why looking at transphobia really matters. The significant factor is the total lack of remorse and how it was all treated as a joke. It was a game. And that in itself probably should merit a harsher sentence without the need to consider transphobia. It was the coldness across the board which would have been applied to any victim. Otherwise you end up with a situation where if the victim isn't trans their life is deemed as less important even though the aggravating factor is a fascination with killing for both. It is the planning and premeditation that's the real concern. Unlike many other child on child crimes. There is no background of conflict. There is no mistaken identity. There is no clear background of targeted emotional bullying directly at Brianna which escalated (the transphobic comments were not used TO Brianna. They were used about Brianna which makes it slightly more difficult). Indeed the opposite seems true - Brianna thought girl x was a friend and the girl seems to have liked Brianna.

Absolutely. What struck me all the way through the trial was the utter coldness of the treatment of Brianna, and also how they both immediately tried to blame the other when caught, despite having been such good mates. There doesn't seem to be much remorse. It's a singularly horrible case.

Packituppackitinletmebegin · 22/12/2023 10:36

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

flaffydaffy · 22/12/2023 10:36

RedToothBrush · 22/12/2023 10:35

I can communicate however I feel happy.

Sorry I believe pronouns are used in a way that are harmful to all.

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Yes you can, and the way of communicating that makes you happy does tell us something about you.

PaperWalkAndTalk · 22/12/2023 10:36

The obsession with trying to make this murder all about transphobia continues.

This case is one of these murders that is desperately trying to be used for political reasons. I've seen cases like it before where the parents can't grieve and deal with the facts because the case has been hijacked by activists.

We've already seen the case be used as an excuse to crack down on this website.

There were protests before any facts were established.

But why is there an obsession with making this about transphobia? Because activists want to bring in new laws and policies. They want to prosecute people they don't like etc.

Brewdug · 22/12/2023 10:36

popebishop · 22/12/2023 10:27

Re the naming of the murderers - does anyone know press protocol in these situations, where they anticipate they will be named? Presumably they've all researched the hell out of the leaked names already (which I don't want to know and no-one should post speculation on, please).

As I understand it (it's been a while) at some point in the trial a journo needs to put a case to the judge that it is in the public interest to name the offender, and the judge will respond one way or the other. Not sure if there is any other way?

popebishop · 22/12/2023 10:36

Scroll on by Red. The fact that that poster believes there is a definitive difference in "self-identifying as" trans and "being" trans shows they are not posting from a supportive position.

RedToothBrush · 22/12/2023 10:37

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

That's your opinion.

Thank you for your opinion.

Packituppackitinletmebegin · 22/12/2023 10:38

Brewdug · 22/12/2023 10:33

I think most people on here have been talking about the facts and legalities of the case. Some others are being led by their emotions and what they imagine things to mean. It's turning into a bun fight.

As others have stated there is no one here who isn't appalled and heartbroken for Brianna. To say otherwise really is bad faith.

Apparently they aren't "heartbroken" enough to not dispute who she was.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 10:38

As I understand it (it's been a while) at some point in the trial a journo needs to put a case to the judge that it is in the public interest to name the offender, and the judge will respond one way or the other. Not sure if there is any other way?

Yes, that's how it happened yesterday.

flaffydaffy · 22/12/2023 10:38

PaperWalkAndTalk · 22/12/2023 10:36

The obsession with trying to make this murder all about transphobia continues.

This case is one of these murders that is desperately trying to be used for political reasons. I've seen cases like it before where the parents can't grieve and deal with the facts because the case has been hijacked by activists.

We've already seen the case be used as an excuse to crack down on this website.

There were protests before any facts were established.

But why is there an obsession with making this about transphobia? Because activists want to bring in new laws and policies. They want to prosecute people they don't like etc.

The obsession with trying to make this murder NOTHING TO DO WITH TRANSPHOBIA continues. Why are people here so invested in that I wonder?

nothingcomestonothing · 22/12/2023 10:38

Packituppackitinletmebegin · 22/12/2023 10:00

Do you often question whether or not murdered children's identities are valid or just the transgender ones? I'm sure her family will take great comfort in knowing that even in death, you dispute her very real, lived existence

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Stop using the murder of a child to push your agenda. The taking of a child's life is not an opportunity for you to grandstand about valid identities.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 10:39

PaperWalkAndTalk · 22/12/2023 10:36

The obsession with trying to make this murder all about transphobia continues.

This case is one of these murders that is desperately trying to be used for political reasons. I've seen cases like it before where the parents can't grieve and deal with the facts because the case has been hijacked by activists.

We've already seen the case be used as an excuse to crack down on this website.

There were protests before any facts were established.

But why is there an obsession with making this about transphobia? Because activists want to bring in new laws and policies. They want to prosecute people they don't like etc.

This.

Packituppackitinletmebegin · 22/12/2023 10:41

nothingcomestonothing · 22/12/2023 10:38

Stop using the murder of a child to push your agenda. The taking of a child's life is not an opportunity for you to grandstand about valid identities.

Show quote history

My "agenda" of not disputing Brianna's very existence, as some have done here, by way positing that she was incorrect about herself and that being trans was a mere "belief" she held, like flat eartherism

Zebedee999 · 22/12/2023 10:42

Off Topic (and not relevant to the murder) but I find the way Brianna dresses in the videos shown on tv quite disturbing for such a young person (she/he/boy dressed as a girl - whatever you think - I don't care - you're entitled to your opinion).
Do parents let their young kids go out dressed like that?

flaffydaffy · 22/12/2023 10:43

Zebedee999 · 22/12/2023 10:42

Off Topic (and not relevant to the murder) but I find the way Brianna dresses in the videos shown on tv quite disturbing for such a young person (she/he/boy dressed as a girl - whatever you think - I don't care - you're entitled to your opinion).
Do parents let their young kids go out dressed like that?

Jesus

RedToothBrush · 22/12/2023 10:44

PaperWalkAndTalk · 22/12/2023 10:36

The obsession with trying to make this murder all about transphobia continues.

This case is one of these murders that is desperately trying to be used for political reasons. I've seen cases like it before where the parents can't grieve and deal with the facts because the case has been hijacked by activists.

We've already seen the case be used as an excuse to crack down on this website.

There were protests before any facts were established.

But why is there an obsession with making this about transphobia? Because activists want to bring in new laws and policies. They want to prosecute people they don't like etc.

Pretty much this.

Examine things properly. Do research to establish whether transition is effective and helpful or does harms. THEN get back to me.

We haven't. That's where I take issue. The failure to consider multiple factors throughout the entire debate.

It's clear there are multiple groups under the trans umbrella with different issues and concerns but we lump them all together to the exclusion of all else. 'Cos Trans'. And people have the gall to say 'bad faith' at me?! Ok then.

That doesn't look at specific vulnerabilities. Particularly for minors. That doesn't actually help anyone solve problems. It just gives them a group identity.

Beowulfa · 22/12/2023 10:44

Packituppackitinletmebegin · 22/12/2023 10:31

You're doing it right in this very post.

"Self-Identfied as trans" No, Brianna was trans.

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Well of course you're trans just if you say you are. That's the basis of the gender belief system.

The discussion is about trans status in relation to this specific murder, hopefully one that is so unusual it will remain unique.

RedToothBrush · 22/12/2023 10:44

Zebedee999 · 22/12/2023 10:42

Off Topic (and not relevant to the murder) but I find the way Brianna dresses in the videos shown on tv quite disturbing for such a young person (she/he/boy dressed as a girl - whatever you think - I don't care - you're entitled to your opinion).
Do parents let their young kids go out dressed like that?

Not sure why that's a helpful comment.

loveanafter8 · 22/12/2023 10:45

Zebedee999 · 22/12/2023 10:42

Off Topic (and not relevant to the murder) but I find the way Brianna dresses in the videos shown on tv quite disturbing for such a young person (she/he/boy dressed as a girl - whatever you think - I don't care - you're entitled to your opinion).
Do parents let their young kids go out dressed like that?

Are you okay? Like genuinely? How could you ever think it’s okay to write these words on a post about a CHILD that was brutally murdered?

flaffydaffy · 22/12/2023 10:45

RedToothBrush · 22/12/2023 10:44

Pretty much this.

Examine things properly. Do research to establish whether transition is effective and helpful or does harms. THEN get back to me.

We haven't. That's where I take issue. The failure to consider multiple factors throughout the entire debate.

It's clear there are multiple groups under the trans umbrella with different issues and concerns but we lump them all together to the exclusion of all else. 'Cos Trans'. And people have the gall to say 'bad faith' at me?! Ok then.

That doesn't look at specific vulnerabilities. Particularly for minors. That doesn't actually help anyone solve problems. It just gives them a group identity.

Show quote history

Stop using the murder of a child to further your agenda.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 10:46

You can do that too @flaffydaffy

HRTQueen · 22/12/2023 10:49

I find it incredible the faith many seem to have on how the police and the legal system have dealt with this case

yet with cases around violence against women the injustice we see time and time again the misogyny from police involved the underhand racism that is obvious time and time again many here will rightly call out

but to have such faith when it comes to the cold blooded murder of a trans girl is odd it’s disingenuous in the very least

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 10:51

What do you feel is wrong in how the police and legal system have dealt with the case, @HRTQueen?

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