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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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28
Packituppackitinletmebegin · 22/12/2023 10:10

popebishop · 22/12/2023 10:08

I think it's a bit grim to use this thread to introduce phrases like "valid identity" as if that means something - we're not discussing someone's passport. I've only ever seen it used as a meaningless pointscoring term - would be better taken to another thread.

It's a lie to say anyone is disputing Brianna's existence. Could people not lie on this thread, please? Just, y'know, think about what this thread is actually about and whether it's a good place to start being dishonest about what other posters have said.

What do you think the implication of "gender identity belief" is, in regards to Brianna's lived experiences and identity? What do you think that suggests about Brianna and how she viewed herself? Even in death, her existence is disputed, if it wasn't you wouldn't have posters even mentioning her identity as a "belief"

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 10:10

Your post was good @popebishop but I think grey rock is the way.

Brewdug · 22/12/2023 10:10

Reported the last post from Packitup because it seems, as in the previous thread on this case, that this sort of trolling may quickly escalate to get this thread deleted. These are valid, detailed discussions containing lots of knowledgeable debate and tales of experience that should be allowed to stand.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 10:12

Yes I particularly would want @FriendOfTimo's account of how her friend was horribly murdered in the 90s to stand.

Flickersy · 22/12/2023 10:12

Brewdug · 22/12/2023 10:10

Reported the last post from Packitup because it seems, as in the previous thread on this case, that this sort of trolling may quickly escalate to get this thread deleted. These are valid, detailed discussions containing lots of knowledgeable debate and tales of experience that should be allowed to stand.

And troll hunting of course will never get a thread deleted...

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 10:14

Personally I think it feels hideously crass of Hinsliff to attack Badenoch for a piece of timing she had no control over.

I've never forgotten her victim blaming over women being mass sexually assaulted in Cologne. She's a hack.

Packituppackitinletmebegin · 22/12/2023 10:16

Brewdug · 22/12/2023 10:10

Reported the last post from Packitup because it seems, as in the previous thread on this case, that this sort of trolling may quickly escalate to get this thread deleted. These are valid, detailed discussions containing lots of knowledgeable debate and tales of experience that should be allowed to stand.

Pointing out that there are people who are casting aspersions about Brianna and her identity is not "trolling".

It's a recognition of how far this thread has fallen.

It's genuinely disturbing that more people are offended by that, then they are about deciding whether or not Brianna was right about her own, internal self and using this thread as another board with which to bemoan how victimised they are.

Have a little bit of decency, have a bit of class, read the room a bit

Packituppackitinletmebegin · 22/12/2023 10:22

Casting aspersions/doubts on the validity of a dead kid's identity because it aligns with your beliefs surrounding trans people is, at best, both tone deaf very strange and at worst a complete abdication of any consideration for what the family would feel.

When this occurs with gay kids we rightly point out how insensitive and ghoulish it is, when it happens to trans kids, we get people debating whether they even exist or whether they're intrinsically deluded about themselves

flaffydaffy · 22/12/2023 10:24

Brewdug · 22/12/2023 10:10

Reported the last post from Packitup because it seems, as in the previous thread on this case, that this sort of trolling may quickly escalate to get this thread deleted. These are valid, detailed discussions containing lots of knowledgeable debate and tales of experience that should be allowed to stand.

These threads get deleted when another point of view starts getting expressed on them. They are perfectly civil when it's only gender critical people saying "it was not a transphobic murder" "yep agree not a transphobic murder" "yes there was transphobia involved but that was a coincidence" "yep I agree, TRAs need to shut up about transphobia"
It's absolutely fine as long as we stick to that and nobody says anything different.

popebishop · 22/12/2023 10:27

Re the naming of the murderers - does anyone know press protocol in these situations, where they anticipate they will be named? Presumably they've all researched the hell out of the leaked names already (which I don't want to know and no-one should post speculation on, please).

RedToothBrush · 22/12/2023 10:28

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 09:50

Imagine being the parents of Brianna Ghey, listening to the evidence and transphobia presented during the trial and then being told by a bunch of people who have no relation to you, who seem to hold views that are antithetical to treating their daughter with dignity, that "well akshully" transphobia didn't play a part at all in her murder

None of us can possibly imagine what Brianna's parents feel. Not you, not me. It's crass for you to presume you do. I do not have to accept someone else's gender identity beliefs as true to think a child being cold bloodedly murdered by two other heartless children is tragic.

As I've said, it's possible both to think that what the two murderers said about Brianna was dehumanising and also transphobic (from one of them in particular), while not believing the motive for this murder was actually transphobia.

I view it differently.

There's transphobia in there. But it's not the motivation.
The more disturbing bits are about the obsessions and disturbing access to content which isn't appropriate for children (and in some cases even adults).
That was the driver, not the fact Brianna was trans.

That's not playing transphobia down. That's trying to make sure the driving factors and concerns aren't ignored because everyone is busy shouting transphobia.

And with regards to the victim being trans there are comorbidity issues.
It sounds like the pair tried to lure someone else first but it failed. They read the situation as not being right for some reason.
Brianna appears not to have done the same.

Brianna desperate for friends formed one with a girl who was giving everyone else a vibe. She'd be excluded from previous schools and the other kids were keeping their distance. There was awareness she had a 'kill list' from 2020.

Was Brianna's social isolation a factor? Did Brianna lack skills to read the situation as being not healthy? Was Brianna desperate for friends and ignored instincts? Was this because trans or for other reasons?

It's important to not dismiss the other reason part. If kids identifying as trans have a really high rate of poor social skills then there's an argument that they should receive support online with those needs rather than it just being labelled as part of being trans.

The fact it's easier to transition than access even minimal support from CAHMS is relevant here. It's also relevant that there is a massive politically led drive to try and say that there should be no mental health elements to transition/ concerns about mental health despite even Stonewall dubious surveys pointing out alarmingly high disability levels which suggest something else is going on. Trans becomes the way to refuse help in a socially pressured and enabled way rather than looking at actual need.

It becomes 'i don't need to see a therapist because they are transphobic' because they ask difficult questions. That in itself is potentially worrying avoidant type behaviour. Why don't you want to confront certain issues?

It might be hard for people to understand that transphobia isn't a driving factor. But this isn't downplaying it. It's highlighting the more significant elements correctly. It's also highlighting issues which made being trans not the reason they were the victim but why co morbid risk factors may be important to kids who identify as trans for a variety of reasons.

In terms of sentencing, I'm not sure why looking at transphobia really matters. The significant factor is the total lack of remorse and how it was all treated as a joke. It was a game. And that in itself probably should merit a harsher sentence without the need to consider transphobia. It was the coldness across the board which would have been applied to any victim. Otherwise you end up with a situation where if the victim isn't trans their life is deemed as less important even though the aggravating factor is a fascination with killing for both. It is the planning and premeditation that's the real concern. Unlike many other child on child crimes. There is no background of conflict. There is no mistaken identity. There is no clear background of targeted emotional bullying directly at Brianna which escalated (the transphobic comments were not used TO Brianna. They were used about Brianna which makes it slightly more difficult). Indeed the opposite seems true - Brianna thought girl x was a friend and the girl seems to have liked Brianna.

And then there was the subsequent attempts at cover up which included messaging Brianna. It's the coldness and calculating that makes it different to 'just another kid murdered in the park' story. Yet the focus is simply on Brianna's identity which isn't anymore right than accusations of transphobia.

That's my point really. The need to put into context and for it to be measured. We have to understand in full, not just look at singular elements. But how they result in a perfect storm and how you can act to stop similar storms via multiple approaches. As singular approaches have more chance of failure in the future.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 10:28

As I understand it, the last thread was deleted because someone was speculating about the identities of the then defendants.

Beowulfa · 22/12/2023 10:29

Packituppackitinletmebegin · 22/12/2023 10:22

Casting aspersions/doubts on the validity of a dead kid's identity because it aligns with your beliefs surrounding trans people is, at best, both tone deaf very strange and at worst a complete abdication of any consideration for what the family would feel.

When this occurs with gay kids we rightly point out how insensitive and ghoulish it is, when it happens to trans kids, we get people debating whether they even exist or whether they're intrinsically deluded about themselves

Edited

Posters on this thread are trying to make sense of a frighteningly calculated child-on-child murder with reference to the wider context of mental health provision, safeguarding, internet control etc.

Nobody has questioned that the victim self-identified as trans.

popebishop · 22/12/2023 10:29

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 10:28

As I understand it, the last thread was deleted because someone was speculating about the identities of the then defendants.

Yes it was, I saw the very persistent repeated posts.

NotBadConsidering · 22/12/2023 10:30

popebishop · 22/12/2023 10:27

Re the naming of the murderers - does anyone know press protocol in these situations, where they anticipate they will be named? Presumably they've all researched the hell out of the leaked names already (which I don't want to know and no-one should post speculation on, please).

The intention is for it to be made known at sentencing and can’t be revealed until then.

LadySylviaMcCordle · 22/12/2023 10:31

I saw the names posted on Twitter yesterday.
I can't remember what they were, though...

Packituppackitinletmebegin · 22/12/2023 10:31

Beowulfa · 22/12/2023 10:29

Posters on this thread are trying to make sense of a frighteningly calculated child-on-child murder with reference to the wider context of mental health provision, safeguarding, internet control etc.

Nobody has questioned that the victim self-identified as trans.

You're doing it right in this very post.

"Self-Identfied as trans" No, Brianna was trans.

popebishop · 22/12/2023 10:31

The intention is for it to be made known at sentencing and can’t be revealed until then.

Yes I get that but wondered what journos actually do - if there will be huge in-depth profiles when that happens.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 10:32

Re the naming of the murderers - does anyone know press protocol in these situations, where they anticipate they will be named? Presumably they've all researched the hell out of the leaked names already (which I don't want to know and no-one should post speculation on, please).

I imagine they've either been tipped off by people in the area or close to the case who know or have otherwise found them out by now.

They are also applying for the 999 call to be made public, I'm not sure why that would be in the public interest.

RedToothBrush · 22/12/2023 10:32

Packituppackitinletmebegin · 22/12/2023 10:22

Casting aspersions/doubts on the validity of a dead kid's identity because it aligns with your beliefs surrounding trans people is, at best, both tone deaf very strange and at worst a complete abdication of any consideration for what the family would feel.

When this occurs with gay kids we rightly point out how insensitive and ghoulish it is, when it happens to trans kids, we get people debating whether they even exist or whether they're intrinsically deluded about themselves

Edited

Except that's part of the national conversation generally anyway because of wider safeguarding concerns.

How can you remove this case from that vacuum ?

You cant. It's impossible. This isn't transphobic. This isn't uncaring. This isn't heartless.

This is the moment in time we live in, where we are trying to assess why the hell we've seen an abnormal spike in behaviour which in other scenarios would lead to safeguarding concerns because of the social contagion element to it.

The concern is that in looking at trans we fail to see the other vulnerabilities that trans identifying kids have and we fail to try and help them 'because trans'.

WarriorN · 22/12/2023 10:32

Once again there's a massive fucking gaping hole in understanding the implications of loose safeguarding around children, particularly those with additional needs.

And yet again a Labour representative hasn't the foggiest about the real problems and needs needed to tackle that.

Fml

At least^^ the shadow Ed sec has welcomed the schools trans consultation

flaffydaffy · 22/12/2023 10:33

"There is no clear background of targeted emotional bullying directly at Brianna which escalated (the transphobic comments were not used TO Brianna. They were used about Brianna which makes it slightly more difficult). Indeed the opposite seems true - Brianna thought girl x was a friend and the girl seems to have liked Brianna."

@RedToothBrush this is such a stilted and unnatural way of communicating just to avoid using any pronouns whatsoever. You don't want to give Brianna any respect by using "she" but "he" would make you look awful so you say "Brianna" 5 times in 3 sentences.

Brewdug · 22/12/2023 10:33

I think most people on here have been talking about the facts and legalities of the case. Some others are being led by their emotions and what they imagine things to mean. It's turning into a bun fight.

As others have stated there is no one here who isn't appalled and heartbroken for Brianna. To say otherwise really is bad faith.

Packituppackitinletmebegin · 22/12/2023 10:33

"Self-Identified" "Gender Identity belief"

All weasal words.

This wouldn't be mentioned in a crime in which race, actual religious belief, sexuality etc was involved.

RedToothBrush · 22/12/2023 10:33

Packituppackitinletmebegin · 22/12/2023 10:31

You're doing it right in this very post.

"Self-Identfied as trans" No, Brianna was trans.

There is no legal basis to this.

Sorry. I don't agree with you.

Brianna was under 18 for starters.

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