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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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28
quantumbutterfly · 22/12/2023 08:35

Whatever my views on the issues involved, as the mum of a 16 year old who is out in the world, doesn't always come home on time or keep in touch about where they are, my heart breaks for the families involved in this.
Losing a child. My words of sympathy would be inadequate, I hope they have good people around them supporting them.

HPFA · 22/12/2023 08:37

flaffydaffy · 22/12/2023 07:55

That's a ridiculous point that keeps coming up again and again as well. Yes transphobia obviously wasn't the sole motivation because there were other potential victims. I don't think anyone ever thought it was the SOLE motivation but if you hate someone for whatever-phobic reason and you kill them then it isn't rendered non-hateful just because there are other people you would happily also have killed!

Nobody here is saying the comments weren't transphobic.

But imagine if you were a parent of one of the other kids on the list and all you're hearing is "JK Rowling is evil because her influence meant Brianna was killed rather than one of the other kids". How would that come over to you?

HRTQueen · 22/12/2023 08:48

When Brianna Ghey was brutally murdered their was intent from those that committed the crime

they viewed Brianna as sub human as they may have others but in the language used was dehumanising language used around her being transgender

now isn’t that how we feminists talk about men who have murdered a woman or a policeman who has murdered a black man or the fathers/brothers that kill their daughter/sister in supposedly honour killings

its appalling and utterly shameful how low people will go you can be seen people can read the vileness between the lines

HRTQueen · 22/12/2023 08:50

I really don’t think the other parents of the children on the list are too concerned by sm spats their child is alive and safe

ffs what a ridiculously stupid comment

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 09:24

This is why the concept of hate crimes is generally poor; it relies on someone trying to piece together the thought process of the perpetrator(s) to know whether the motive had extra oomph to it. In this particular case, what would a hate crime vs not a hate crime change?

I agree.

HPFA · 22/12/2023 09:26

HRTQueen · 22/12/2023 08:50

I really don’t think the other parents of the children on the list are too concerned by sm spats their child is alive and safe

ffs what a ridiculously stupid comment

I think you're rather proving my point there.

Packituppackitinletmebegin · 22/12/2023 09:36

HPFA · 22/12/2023 08:37

Nobody here is saying the comments weren't transphobic.

But imagine if you were a parent of one of the other kids on the list and all you're hearing is "JK Rowling is evil because her influence meant Brianna was killed rather than one of the other kids". How would that come over to you?

Imagine being the parents of Brianna Ghey, listening to the evidence and transphobia presented during the trial and then being told by a bunch of people who have no relation to you, who seem to hold views that are antithetical to treating their daughter with dignity, that "well akshully" transphobia didn't play a part at all in her murder

bellac11 · 22/12/2023 09:39

If I decide to kill someone and while messaging about my hate for them call them a fat bastard or fat bitch, or ugly, or any other number of names, it doesnt necessarily equate to me killing them for that reason.

Much knife crime committed by children on children will be accompanied by various slurs and name calling, it doesnt mean the slur is afixed to a factor in the killing.

Im not sure why there is such brow beating about whether this was about the child's gender issues, when the fact is, these two were out to cause harm by way of anyone and like most kids, would name call in the process of this.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 09:42

RedToothBrush · 22/12/2023 05:00

Nor does it excuse the way the life history of the victim and her motivations for transitioning are being dissected upthread. "Was she actually a vulnerable person (to being murdered by a transphobe) because she was trans? Or did she transition... because she was a vulnerable person?" Please don't pull that that on a grieving mother.

You cant retrospectively go back in time and rewrite the Cass Review which raised massive questions about comorbidities across the board.

The ship has sailed on discussion of comorbidities. Sorry if that's inconvenient.

Thats a question that hangs over every kid who transitions regardless of whether they are murdered and remains forever for a mother. It is part of life generally in terms of whether you did the right thing for your child that exists without trans.

And every murder is full of 'what if' that'd said this or done that or things had been different. I don't see how this one is different.

Trying to make out that discussion of the case is somehow something that should be offlimits to the rest of the public when it's being politicised by trans activists and MPs is just 'wow'.

The idea that we must remain silent out of a sense of unquestioning respect or we are bad people is actually frightening. Condemning others for not sharing your opinion and castigating them for 'not caring' is quite frankly bollocks. And it's utterly tone deaf as to how this case was politicised from the off and who by.

Who thought of the grieving mother when they shouted 'transphobia' before arrests were even made?! But that's ok, because those are the 'right 'opinions to have.

Nor can you have a whinge at MNetters saying that comorbidities are a concern, when Cheshire Police say the following:

Detective chief superintendent Mike Evans, Cheshire Police’s head of crime, was asked by members of the press why he thinks the pair targeted Brianna.
He said: "So Brianna, I would say from her lifestyle her being an anxious child who stayed indoors a lot, was quite a vulnerable individual.

"She was very withdrawn, and she had a small social circle.

"The fact of her lack of confidence and anxiety, and the fact this was the first time she had been out for a while, I think made her quite vulnerable.

"That, and her being quite trusting of the girl involved who befriended her, I think made her relatively easy in terms of accessibility."

Before going on to say that it was because Brianna was trans but because she was vulnerable that made her the target rather than others on a list.

Every murder does raise the legitimate and worthwhile question of whether authorities could have made different decisions which might have safeguarded an individual better. In order to review whether institutions should change their behaviour or not.

Are you seriously saying that we shouldn't go through the normal process of this, 'because trans' and we should just on face value accept that trans exists in isolation and a vacuum separate from all else?

Are kids who identify as trans not worthy of the same level of reflection and review as any other group? Or is it an act of sacrilege to raise questions and talk about safeguarding in conjunction with trans?

God forbid the world and life in general should be complicated rather than black and white.

God forbid genuinely giving a shit, isn't packaged in a way that's always given the seal of political approval and justice and democracy isn't open to debate because that might just upset people and that's not very nice.

We live in a society where we understand that making things better involves talking about horrible things sometimes because if we don't we miss points that might cause further harms to others.

We can't change the past. We can be vigilant about how we go forward though.

I'm not going to be emotionally blackmailed by people who don't understand this and told I'm a horrible person for not towing an approved line. It's not reflective of the truth. It's not reflective of how I have sympathy for the mother. It's reflective of the fact that I feel if we don't have these conversations more people will be at risk in a multitude of ways and it's trying to ensure others are helped to be less vulnerable.

Trans is not the only thing that matters. Not in this case and not in life in general.

Exactly. People have been using this tragic murder to point the finger at women who care about women's rights and child safeguarding when it happened. Despite the murder being committed by a pair of highly disturbed 15 year olds. Which is why this thread exists in FWR, and we are discussing this.

It does feel like they just want to keep steamrolling on through calling it a "transphobic hate crime" to fit their narrative without engaging with the details.

There are bigger questions here about the influence of the online material that children are able to access at a young age. About teenage knife crime.

NotBadConsidering · 22/12/2023 09:42

Packituppackitinletmebegin · 22/12/2023 09:36

Imagine being the parents of Brianna Ghey, listening to the evidence and transphobia presented during the trial and then being told by a bunch of people who have no relation to you, who seem to hold views that are antithetical to treating their daughter with dignity, that "well akshully" transphobia didn't play a part at all in her murder

Edited

Transphobia was ruled out as the motivating factor by police and prosecutors. Brianna’s parents heard that directly from them.

Everyone here has treated Brianna with dignity. A politician like Dawn Butler using the case for her own gains, not so much.

bellac11 · 22/12/2023 09:43

LonelynSad · 22/12/2023 08:19

I thought there was one victim?

There was an attempted poisioning I thought I read?

Was she charged with that?

Packituppackitinletmebegin · 22/12/2023 09:43

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 09:42

Exactly. People have been using this tragic murder to point the finger at women who care about women's rights and child safeguarding when it happened. Despite the murder being committed by a pair of highly disturbed 15 year olds. Which is why this thread exists in FWR, and we are discussing this.

It does feel like they just want to keep steamrolling on through calling it a "transphobic hate crime" to fit their narrative without engaging with the details.

There are bigger questions here about the influence of the online material that children are able to access at a young age. About teenage knife crime.

That's right, you're the real victims here, not Brianna or her family, it's you

Packituppackitinletmebegin · 22/12/2023 09:48

NotBadConsidering · 22/12/2023 09:42

Transphobia was ruled out as the motivating factor by police and prosecutors. Brianna’s parents heard that directly from them.

Everyone here has treated Brianna with dignity. A politician like Dawn Butler using the case for her own gains, not so much.

In the same page you posted this, someone has already used her death as an excuse to claim how victimised they are.

It all reads as very insincere.

NotBadConsidering · 22/12/2023 09:50

Packituppackitinletmebegin · 22/12/2023 09:48

In the same page you posted this, someone has already used her death as an excuse to claim how victimised they are.

It all reads as very insincere.

Edited

No one has done this and it’s clear to me what is sincere and insincere here. For example, creating a MN account to post on this particular thread.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 09:50

Imagine being the parents of Brianna Ghey, listening to the evidence and transphobia presented during the trial and then being told by a bunch of people who have no relation to you, who seem to hold views that are antithetical to treating their daughter with dignity, that "well akshully" transphobia didn't play a part at all in her murder

None of us can possibly imagine what Brianna's parents feel. Not you, not me. It's crass for you to presume you do. I do not have to accept someone else's gender identity beliefs as true to think a child being cold bloodedly murdered by two other heartless children is tragic.

As I've said, it's possible both to think that what the two murderers said about Brianna was dehumanising and also transphobic (from one of them in particular), while not believing the motive for this murder was actually transphobia.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 09:51

My quoting never seems to work! The first paragraph was a quote.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 09:53

There was an attempted poisioning I thought I read?

Was she charged with that?

No I don't think so. The two have only been found guilty on the count of murder.

RoyalCorgi · 22/12/2023 09:55

Gaby Hinsliff in today's Guardian takes an unnecessary pop at Kemi Badenoch: "It feels hideously crass for the equalities minister, Kemi Badenoch, to be trumpeting a crack on so-called social transitioning in schools, under which teachers will be encouraged to push back against children’s requests to change pronouns."

Personally I think it feels hideously crass of Hinsliff to attack Badenoch for a piece of timing she had no control over.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 09:57

That's right, you're the real victims here, not Brianna or her family, it's you

That's not what I'm claiming and you know it. Stop twisting my words. It's relevant to other people who are being falsely blamed by people with an agenda, yes. We are allowed to talk about that here.

Packituppackitinletmebegin · 22/12/2023 10:00

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 09:50

Imagine being the parents of Brianna Ghey, listening to the evidence and transphobia presented during the trial and then being told by a bunch of people who have no relation to you, who seem to hold views that are antithetical to treating their daughter with dignity, that "well akshully" transphobia didn't play a part at all in her murder

None of us can possibly imagine what Brianna's parents feel. Not you, not me. It's crass for you to presume you do. I do not have to accept someone else's gender identity beliefs as true to think a child being cold bloodedly murdered by two other heartless children is tragic.

As I've said, it's possible both to think that what the two murderers said about Brianna was dehumanising and also transphobic (from one of them in particular), while not believing the motive for this murder was actually transphobia.

Do you often question whether or not murdered children's identities are valid or just the transgender ones? I'm sure her family will take great comfort in knowing that even in death, you dispute her very real, lived existence

WickedSerious · 22/12/2023 10:00

Packituppackitinletmebegin · 22/12/2023 09:48

In the same page you posted this, someone has already used her death as an excuse to claim how victimised they are.

It all reads as very insincere.

Edited

You've put two and two together and made purple.

Packituppackitinletmebegin · 22/12/2023 10:01

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 09:57

That's right, you're the real victims here, not Brianna or her family, it's you

That's not what I'm claiming and you know it. Stop twisting my words. It's relevant to other people who are being falsely blamed by people with an agenda, yes. We are allowed to talk about that here.

You're also allowed to be criticised for it and how inappropiate it is, what you've got a problem with that?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/12/2023 10:06

I'm not engaging further with bad faith posters.

popebishop · 22/12/2023 10:08

I think it's a bit grim to use this thread to introduce phrases like "valid identity" as if that means something - we're not discussing someone's passport. I've only ever seen it used as a meaningless pointscoring term - would be better taken to another thread.

It's a lie to say anyone is disputing Brianna's existence. Could people not lie on this thread, please? Just, y'know, think about what this thread is actually about and whether it's a good place to start being dishonest about what other posters have said.

popebishop · 22/12/2023 10:08

That's probably a better idea than my post, eresh.

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