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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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28
FriendOfTimo · 21/12/2023 18:44

When my friend was murdered some people tried to say it was motivated by racism.
The National Front even had my (white British) friend’s photo on the their website, alongside 3 of the 6 murderers’ police mugshots (black British & mixed race British).

Unsurprisingly, the racism-as-motivation stuff was bollocks, 2 of the 6 were white British, the minor who instigated the attack and continued to commit violent crime after incarceration and the only one who actually showed remorse and cooperated with the police, who was an adult. The girl was mixed race but
the NF didn’t mention her, presumably because she disrupted their overall political narrative, which was creating division by pretending that hoardes of scary black youths were targeting nice middle class white boys.

The National Front posted a half story because the whole story, one of children growing up with inadequate parental supervision, inadequate education, inadequate social services supervision and inadequate policing on a deprived South London estate wasn’t a convenient one.
Those children grew into teens who wandered the central London streets, taking drugs and committing petty crimes in an unhealthy, ever escalating group dynamic that desensitised them to other people’s humanity. Once the violence began it continued until my friend was dead.

They weren’t even a gang, just two groups of three friends who vaguely knew each other from the estate and one group encountered the other mid-crime and joined in.

My friend was in the wrong place at the wrong time, could’ve been anyone really, he and his mate looked like easy targets for a robbery but didn’t have anything worth stealing, so they beat both of them unconscious and threw them in the river.

There are many parallels with Brianna’s story, including that one of my friend’s murderers, like Girl X, had told some of the others that he had murdered a couple of times before. As with Girl X the police were unable to find evidence of those crimes and the claims were just stories, violent fantasies to impress and intimidate others into committing real crimes.

The big difference is that my friend’s murder was not premeditated, although some of the 6 were out that night with the intent of committing violent robbery.
No text message evidence back in 1999, of course.

That some people seek to politicise Brianna’s murder by turning it into a convenient, shallow stereotype of hate-crime rather than seek an understanding of all the factors that made Brianna vulnerable and desensitised Brianna’s murderers to human suffering to the point they cheerfully and fatally brutalised a vulnerable person for no real reason beyond violence for violence sake is depressingly similar to how the NF sought to politicise my friend’s murder more than 20 years ago.

Flickersy · 21/12/2023 18:45

PronounssheRa · 21/12/2023 18:35

Tom8251 letting the world know he monitors the discussions of women on mumsnet.

Odd hobby

FWR monitors twitter, twitter monitors FWR.

dapsnotplimsolls · 21/12/2023 18:47

So she's going to report MN for ... hurty feelings?

JemimaTiggywinkles · 21/12/2023 18:52

@FriendOfTimo I’m so sorry for your loss. This bit really stood out to me:

The National Front posted a half story because the whole story, one of children growing up with inadequate parental supervision, inadequate education, inadequate social services supervision and inadequate policing on a deprived South London estate wasn’t a convenient one.

Because it is a tale as old as time, isn’t it? The actual problem and solution are both complicated so someone with an agenda comes up with their own, incorrect narrative.

WickedSerious · 21/12/2023 18:58

duc748 · 21/12/2023 17:45

I came to the conclusion a while ago that Dawn Butler is an idiot. Mind you, she's hardly the only Labour MP that charge could be levelled at.

An idiotic labour MP.

Who'da thunk it?

devilsice123 · 21/12/2023 19:03

there were still kids killing kids when I was a teenager, I was 14 when those boys killed poor Jamie Bulger.

PronounssheRa · 21/12/2023 19:04

Flickersy · 21/12/2023 18:45

FWR monitors twitter, twitter monitors FWR.

Men monitoring a site aimed primarily at women and then using this in various ways to attempt to control is l, i think, quite different from women (and men) browsing twitter. Especially when the twitter in question is an account of an elected MP.

RufustheFactualReindeer · 21/12/2023 19:06

PronounssheRa · 21/12/2023 19:04

Men monitoring a site aimed primarily at women and then using this in various ways to attempt to control is l, i think, quite different from women (and men) browsing twitter. Especially when the twitter in question is an account of an elected MP.

Yes i agree

its been the case on here for a long time, men with no interest in joining MN who just want to make sure that they can stop posters from talking

bellac11 · 21/12/2023 19:06

Im not sure the lack of MH services for children in the UK would be relevant to the perpetrators, what MH diagnoses do they have, did they want MH intervention?

I would imagine both of them refusing to engage.

What then?

Flickersy · 21/12/2023 19:09

PronounssheRa · 21/12/2023 19:04

Men monitoring a site aimed primarily at women and then using this in various ways to attempt to control is l, i think, quite different from women (and men) browsing twitter. Especially when the twitter in question is an account of an elected MP.

Ah I see. It's browsing when it's someone we approve of and monitoring when it's not. Got it.

JemimaTiggywinkles · 21/12/2023 19:09

@devilsice123 sorry to be an arse, but his name was James Bulger, not Jamie. His mother has corrected this in the press over the years.

You are right that children killing children isn’t new though. The wider issue of the scale of knife crime amongst teenagers is pretty new though.

RufustheFactualReindeer · 21/12/2023 19:11

Flickersy · 21/12/2023 19:09

Ah I see. It's browsing when it's someone we approve of and monitoring when it's not. Got it.

I don’t think you’ve got it at all

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/12/2023 19:13

Ah I see. It's browsing when it's someone we approve of and monitoring when it's not. Got it.

Can you really not see the difference?

PronounssheRa · 21/12/2023 19:14

Flickersy · 21/12/2023 19:09

Ah I see. It's browsing when it's someone we approve of and monitoring when it's not. Got it.

No.

Monitoring means seeking out people to report to get posts removed. Sometimes targeting individual posters to get them banned altogether. And it's frequently males that do this to the women posting here.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 21/12/2023 19:15

For ages, I thought that MP's name was Dawn Butler-Brent because her twitter name is DawnButlerBrent. There's posh, I thought.😂Even now, when someone mentions her, I automatically hear a non-existent 'Brent' after her name.

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2023 19:15

bellac11 · 21/12/2023 19:06

Im not sure the lack of MH services for children in the UK would be relevant to the perpetrators, what MH diagnoses do they have, did they want MH intervention?

I would imagine both of them refusing to engage.

What then?

The girl has been identified as having autism and ADHD after the incident

She was also talking about inappropriate things - which potentially should have flagged up various safeguarding concerns. By all accounts she's had a 'kill list' since 2020.

Given how hard it has been to get diagnosis for two kids in DS's class with very obvious issues, it's not even about lack of engagement - it's just shit provision from top to bottom.

FriendOfTimo · 21/12/2023 19:16

JemimaTiggywinkles · 21/12/2023 18:52

@FriendOfTimo I’m so sorry for your loss. This bit really stood out to me:

The National Front posted a half story because the whole story, one of children growing up with inadequate parental supervision, inadequate education, inadequate social services supervision and inadequate policing on a deprived South London estate wasn’t a convenient one.

Because it is a tale as old as time, isn’t it? The actual problem and solution are both complicated so someone with an agenda comes up with their own, incorrect narrative.

Depressingly, Dawn Butler MP is a member of the party that so many UK voters are now looking to tackle these difficult societal issues 😬

Were politicians always this shallow and reactionary or is it a new phenomenon?

PaperWalkAndTalk · 21/12/2023 19:18

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2023 17:58

I just think she's incredibly unprofessional and utterly bonkers.

She's clearly not even bothered to check what's been said and is spouting off about reporting to the police.

Just how much of a waste of their time and resources is it?!

This isn't a celebrity. This is a goddam sitting MP!

Oh, I agree. It's more about the activist who spends all time monitoring Mumsnet and then posts on Twitter what's upset he\him.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/12/2023 19:21

For ages, I thought that MP's name was Dawn Butler-Brent because her twitter name is DawnButlerBrent.

I also thought this Grin

PaperWalkAndTalk · 21/12/2023 19:22

Anyway, back to the actual topic.

I just thought about why there is so much talk about the safety of the parents of the two murderers. I would imagine that there are a lot of trans activists making threats against the families.

I can't believe that the judge has just dismissed their safety in this, as well as giving the two murderers the notoriety they desired.

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2023 19:24

Flickersy · 21/12/2023 19:09

Ah I see. It's browsing when it's someone we approve of and monitoring when it's not. Got it.

I don't think anyone here is claiming to be in a position of responsibility.

Dawn Butler is an elected MP who should uphold minimum standards of conduct.

It's the job of media and social media to hold power to account. Dawn is accountable to the electorate.

It is an abuse of her position to be shouting on social media that MN should be reported for nothing to the police. It's trying weaponise the subject for political gain by claiming a crime has happened when there's no such thing. That's trying to maliciously harm a business and destroy reputations.

If you don't get the difference between a member of the public saying something on social media and an elected official abusing their position on social media, you really don't know a lot about much. And as such I'll treat such comments with the level of respect that's due to them.

pronounsbundlebundle · 21/12/2023 19:32

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2023 19:15

The girl has been identified as having autism and ADHD after the incident

She was also talking about inappropriate things - which potentially should have flagged up various safeguarding concerns. By all accounts she's had a 'kill list' since 2020.

Given how hard it has been to get diagnosis for two kids in DS's class with very obvious issues, it's not even about lack of engagement - it's just shit provision from top to bottom.

Good point. CAMHS waiting list for 'non urgent' (which as far as I can tell means non suicidal) chidren is now 3 YEARS in my area. More than enough time for things to go horribly wrong for a child in many ways.

We don't actually know that no teachers or parents or other adults raised safeguarding concerns - what we do know is that there was no effective intervention / action given they carried on accessing disturbing content on the internet, taking drugs and went on to commit the worst crime you can imagine.

PronounssheRa · 21/12/2023 19:37

Were politicians always this shallow and reactionary or is it a new phenomenon?

I'm fairly sure some MPs are a lower calibre now. But we also have more access to them, we see their thoughts in tweets, we see them in action in parliament, etc. So there is nowhere to hide. If they are a bit shallow of thought, it soon becomes apparent, in the past that would have been easier to hide.

JemimaTiggywinkles · 21/12/2023 19:39

Were politicians always this shallow and reactionary or is it a new phenomenon?

I suspect a bit of both. I do think Johnson was the product of a general deterioration of what we expect from those in public office rather than a cause. But I also think he represents a low point. The increasing prominence of capable people (eg Badenoch) gives me hope for the future. I also think the Labour front bench has been more grown up under Starmer than it was under Corbyn.

I can't believe that the judge has just dismissed their safety in this, as well as giving the two murderers the notoriety they desired.

I doubt it has been dismissed in any casual manner. The reality is that anyone within the community will know exactly who they are. The names are convicted children aren’t kept secret to protect their families (otherwise many adult murderers would be granted anonymity), it is to protect the children themselves.

bellac11 · 21/12/2023 19:42

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2023 19:15

The girl has been identified as having autism and ADHD after the incident

She was also talking about inappropriate things - which potentially should have flagged up various safeguarding concerns. By all accounts she's had a 'kill list' since 2020.

Given how hard it has been to get diagnosis for two kids in DS's class with very obvious issues, it's not even about lack of engagement - it's just shit provision from top to bottom.

Yes, she (we now know) has autistic traits and ADHD

So lets say she was referred for these assessments and seen by CAMHS and got assessed and received a diagnosis. All they do is give out ADHD medication and often are not timely with reviews, you have to chase them all the time. Theres no 'intervention' as such

She was talking about inappropriate things - so school/SW (if there was one) would want to refer to CAMHS. Firstly she needs to consent to working with them. Secondly, I cant tell you the amount of referrals we make that just get closed down because there is 'no MH concerns'.

Talking about inappropriate things or having a kill list for CAMHS is not a MH issue.

Its an issue for everyone else, but its not their remit. And you cant force YP to work with CAMHS.

This doesnt start when the YP is 15, this starts way way back in the early years with regard to parenting and support services.

I dont disagree about shit provision but the problem (and some people would disagree with me) is that MH is quite narrowly defined as 'illness' for services to get involved. She wasnt and isnt 'ill'.

Thats what I mean when I say its not about MH services, its not relevant to her.

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