Guilty verdict in Brianna Ghey case

[RoyalCorgi]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/20/brianna-ghey-found-guilty-murder

Not a surprise - it felt very clear-cut.

40% isn’t rare.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-56365412

I’m unclear why someone would come on to a feminist forum and attempt to downplay the severity of MVAWG, even going so far as to defend a man claiming that it’s “vanishingly rare” for women to be murdered, but can I suggest… don’t?

It took literally two seconds on Google to find that link; you should fact check yourself next time.

Actually on second thought maybe it’s better for someone to make those arguments so they can be refuted. The downplaying of male violence is endemic in the culture and it’s probably not right to blame individuals for thinking this way, apart from extreme cases like that guy on Unherd.

I just want to say apropos of the Unherd commenter that women being targeted for violence because they are women is an actual problem, not a function of propaganda and dodgy statistics. It’s not considered a hate crime precisely because it’s so common, and because we live in a culture that systematically understates the extent of such violence. But I’ll leave it there since violence against women is not the topic of this thread.

I don't understand why you think @FriendOfTimo is downplaying male violence. She thought, as I did, tbh, that the vast majority of violence against women was from men they knew. You've corrected that - thank you. But nothing she said suggests that violence against women is rare.

FriendofTimo, I'm so sorry about your friend.

For the record, I wasn't 'monitoring' Dawn Butler in any way, she popped up in my twitter feed uninvited. I don't even follow her. Twitter does this sort of thing. I don't block people unless they're seriously and consistently offensive in a way that can't be avoided, or they appear to be advertising bots. I think it's good for me to see a range of perspectives even if I strongly disagree with some of them.

I seriously doubt any of us here have the power to send armies of twitter trolls after people. If she even was trolled as opposed to being called out on her poor conduct. I haven't looked.

Yeah the algorithm popped it up for me.

Needs prosecuting for wasting police time surely?

But your link says 5% of murdered women were killed by strangers, not 40%?

(and 29% no suspect charged but that doesn’t tell us anything at all about the relationship between murderer & murder victim)

I’m not downplaying violence against women, it’s just that if we want to reduce it (and I’m assuming everyone here does) we need to come up with properly targeted and funded interventions (eg helping women escape domestic violence situations earlier and more easily) because fuck knows we don’t have the time and resources to do everything.

And actually I said murder of women was ‘depressingly common’, not ‘vanishingly rare’, it’s right there in the very post you quoted, so maybe ‘fact check yourself’ next time, eh?

(I’m a regular FWR poster, btw, I name changed for this because writing about the murder of my friend, Timo is likely rather identifying. Perhaps you would’ve read my comment differently if you had recognised my username and realised I was trying to parse out wtf Mr UnherdComments was banging on about rather than immediately assuming the worst of me!)

I haven’t followed the case but that doesn’t seem to be consistent with current reporting?

So far as I can tell, the police initially ruled out a hate crime, then walked that back after reviewing the text messages and said transphobia may have been a factor. While the detective still believes this likely wasn’t a hate crime, that’ll be for the judge to decide on sentencing.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brianna-ghey-transgender-murder-crime-b2467392.html

I haven’t followed the case

Most people on this thread have followed the case and transphobia is not thought to be the motive for the murder. The police and various court officials have said as much. Brianna's vulnerability may be reflected in sentencing. But it doesn't seem to be about transphobia, as has been discussed at length on this thread. There were dehumanising messages about several on their kill list.

And the Independent is in no way a reliable or neutral source.

There seems to be a common theme of "experts have said that it wasn't a hate crime, but that doesn't fit my narrative so I'm going to keep going on about transphobia".

Yes, @PaperWalkAndTalk

So Ursula Doyle, the deputy chief crown prosecutor who led this case, and who is quoted at length in the Independent article explaining that whether-or-not the offence was motivated by hate is a decision for the Judge to make upon sentencing, is wrong and lacks sufficient expertise?

It's startling the lies being told about Mumsnet right now.

https://twitter.com/jeannemia26/status/1737978711272575430?t=HC9iBLK4YVu5AvxG4QDE7A&s=19

I'm amazed that Mumsnet's lot have chosen now to start claiming they aren't a terfy cesspit; there were posts there on the day it was reported in the media that Brianna Ghey was trans, declaring that "it must have been self defence" and calling her all sorts of awful things

As you said @SpecialCharacters you haven't actually followed this case, you've just read about it in the Independent. The evidence suggests that transphobia was not the motive.

…no, while I haven’t actively followed the proceedings, I have since read about it several places over the last few days, not just that one short article. Still, I have no doubt that most of you are more familiar with the evidence than I am, though, and the reason I’m on this thread is to learn more about it.

The reason I quoted the Independent article, in particular, was because I was responding specifically to PaperWalkAndTalk’s comment “This is why transphobic hate crime was ruled out by the the police and the justice system.”

I don’t see how you can say that it has been ruled out by the Justice system when, according to the CPS, it will be a matter for the judge to determine on sentencing? Unless you are quite sure that the CPS are wrong?

And while I certainly see the logic behind the detectives’ belief that it was not a hate crime, and why you, others, and ultimately the judge may all agree, part of Ursula Doyle’s quote seems to imply that she feels it is very much a live issue:

“All the prosecution can do is prosecute the evidence we have and obviously, it’s not part of the prosecution case to label it one way or another. The evidence is there, the evidence of the messages is there, the evidence of the language used.”

To be clear, I have not said and am not arguing that it was a hate crime - just that that the statement that the justice system has ruled it out does not seem to be accurate (at present, at least).

There is plenty of discussion of whether the motive was transphobia on this thread. You can read all the evidence submitted during the full 3 week trial on the Liverpool Echo live updates.

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/live-court-updates-two-teenagers-28180964.amp

This is a good article, and it reflects why @PaperWalkAndTalk made the comment she did. Trans activists have tried to push their own agenda using this tragic murder from the outset, and a lot of chatter in the media and social media reflects that.

Sorry forgot to link

unherd.com/thepost/stop-exploiting-brianna-gheys-murder

Once again I think, I'm always interested in unherd pieces (even if I don't agree), but I tend to stop short at the responses,

How odd, the answers Ursula Doyle has given in that Independent article seem to contradict the information on the CPS website:

https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/hate-crime

I wonder if the discrepancy is in what Doyle actually said or in how The Independent has presented it?

If you continue on to the end of the quote Doyle says that CPS ‘cannot label it or prosecute it as one thing or another,’ which surely suggests that the CPS has not prosecuted it ‘as a hate crime’ in accordance with the info on the CPS website?

Perhaps CPS has applied for ‘sentencing uplift’ and Doyle isn’t allowed to state that to the press at this time?

But I’m not pushing an agenda. All I have said is that, while the police do not believe it was a hate crime, the justice system has not made that determination (as PaperWalkAndTalk stated). That is also made clear in the article you provided.

There is every reason to approach such an extraordinary case with caution. It is still unclear whether Brianna was targeted because she was transgender or because she was socially isolated and more vulnerable than the other teenagers on the list. As soon as they began examining messages exchanged by the killers, Cheshire Police said they did not believe Brianna was murdered because she was trans. The judge’s view will not be clear until the sentencing hearing, which will take place in February. Until then, it is imperative that Brianna’s family is given space and time to grieve.

In fact, as someone who is not attempting to argue, either way, whether this was or was not a hate crime (and is simply pointing out that is yet to be determined), I think I’m adhering to that last sentence more so than others.

Ffs sown on here will tie themselves in knots to make a point this poor child wasn’t brutally murdered because of who she was

how many times have the courts, have the police have the legal system excused racism and it’s still done how many times are women dismissed because it doesn’t suit a narrative but that can’t be applied to transphobia

its sickening I have always supported the arguments of single sex spaces being needed and female voices being heard

but I support those who feel they are born in the wrong body to be equally heard

I’m no longer surprised MN is considered transphobic

MNHQ can claim all they want they don’t allow hate speech but as with racism, as with decision as with all hatred people can read between the lines

But I’m not pushing an agenda.

I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about the chatter on social media. You said you had read several articles about it. A lot of people who haven't followed the case seem to be continuing to push the idea that it was transphobia, in spite of the evidence that suggests that was not the primary motive.

Sorry meant to quote you @SpecialCharacters