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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Finally: Gender questioning children: draft schools and colleges guidance

503 replies

WarriorN · 19/12/2023 10:37

Gender questioning children: draft schools and colleges guidance

consult.education.gov.uk/equalities-political-impartiality-anti-bullying-team/gender-questioning-children-proposed-guidance/

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25
AbnerBrown · 19/12/2023 18:13

As a civil servant and SEEN member, I am seriously cheered by this.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 19/12/2023 18:19

The BBC have reported that the teaching unions have cautiously welcomed the guidelines. I think that's quite positive.
I'm not surprised - arguing against them will be quite hard as you'd be arguing against safeguarding, in favour of primary children transitioning and against the rights of girls to single sex sport / changing etc.

duc748 · 19/12/2023 18:20

Aren't the teaching unions fundamentally TWAW?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 19/12/2023 18:26

duc748 · 19/12/2023 18:20

Aren't the teaching unions fundamentally TWAW?

They are. But there's an election coming up and they all know (no matter how much some may hate it) that arguing for kids to be transitioned in secret from parents is not a vote winner. Let alone mixed sex changing etc.

EasternStandard · 19/12/2023 18:27

MrsOvertonsWindow · 19/12/2023 18:26

They are. But there's an election coming up and they all know (no matter how much some may hate it) that arguing for kids to be transitioned in secret from parents is not a vote winner. Let alone mixed sex changing etc.

I’m really hoping the straight talking quoted on these threads shows to pretty much all adults how insane it would be to go against basic safeguarding

duc748 · 19/12/2023 18:32

I guess when you claim to support something that you probably don't really believe in yourself, you're building on shaky foundations. As the unions and the LP will surely soon discover.

I had a look at the Huff Post's reaction piece on this, They clearly thought the most important thing was to get the view of India Willoughby. Closely followed by Stonewall and Mermaids. They're beyond hope, aren't they?

theilltemperedclavecinist · 19/12/2023 19:40

Dr David Bell on C4 News just now. Wow! He's saying All The Things. Affirmation is wrong. Social contagion is a thing. I can't believe how things have turned around.

wideawakeinthemiddleofthenightagain · 19/12/2023 20:46

I think it's important to acknowledge how important Maya Forstater, Alison Bailey and others have been in giving so many of us the confidence to know that we could safely talk about this in schools and realise that others were thinking the same way that we did. I'd already started raising my head above the parapet before then as I just couldn't understand the position being peddled by various groups but it was their cases which made me do that more publicly and loudly.

JemimaTiggywinkles · 19/12/2023 22:06

The problem is that activist teachers think that a parent not affirming their child's self-declared gender identity as fact means that parent is a safeguarding risk.

Sorry, I know this is going back a bit but I’ve been busy painting my kitchen. I think it’s important to note that ordinary teachers have little influence in determining this. This sort of decision will be made by the DSL (usually a deputy head in secondary schools) often in conjunction with outside agencies. Whilst they aren’t perfect they do tend to be more aware of the potential liabilities involved in ignoring government guidance.

I also agree with the poster up thread to highlighted that this guidance brings being gender questioning to the same sphere as questioning sexuality. The correct approach, imo.

I think the worry about Labour is overblown to an extent. Starmer is not a TRA and they know full well that the public largely agree with what is in this document. It will absolutely come up as a question at election time and the Labour top brass will not want their potential cabinet members to look like fools.

Finally (for now, I’m sure I’ll have loads of thoughts over the next few weeks) I want to mention not only how excellent Badenoch is (it’s rare I come across a Tory I respect as much as I do her), but also that she herself has noted a meeting with Kiera Bell as being influential on her understanding in this area. Kiera is incredibly brave and deserves a chunk of credit for saving young girls from being put through what she went through. I really don’t think we’d have got this massive step forward without her.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 19/12/2023 22:32

Lovely post Jemima. This is a significant step forward to removing transactivism from schools where it has no business.

Christmascountdownpanic · 19/12/2023 22:40

theilltemperedclavecinist · 19/12/2023 19:40

Dr David Bell on C4 News just now. Wow! He's saying All The Things. Affirmation is wrong. Social contagion is a thing. I can't believe how things have turned around.

This 100 💯

I've seen social contagion in vulnerable girls with asd. Both felt different and both said that they think they are both boys and both changed pronouns. One a couple of years later is back to being a girl and the other is into girls but says they are a boy rather than a lesbian.

One being affirmed and pushed along the way , it's trendy, it's socially in with teens and gets maximum attention....that particular child craves it and has found a way to get it now

Ramblingnamechanger · 19/12/2023 23:50

Had a big problem with the Head of a school in Liverpool, who had no worries about referring the many trans children in his school on to specialist organisations, for which I read Mermaids etc. It also worries me that all the news coverage talked about trans children as if they actually exist.

Hurrydash · 19/12/2023 23:59

'Starmer is not a TRA'

JemimaTiggy...quote

( don't know how to make this bold)

Don't know about Starmer.He has stated 1 in 1000 women have a penis.

Just need to beware of (almost) all politicians who say what they think will win them votes.

This shitshow mostly happened under the Tories over the last 13 years

But at least now they are doing (broadly) the right things in this area.

We really need to make sure Labour are on board as they will be the next government (most likely)

Really good news today but still some thin ice around.

CriticalCondition · 20/12/2023 00:08

the news coverage talked about trans children as if they actually exist.
Actually all the news coverage I've heard on the BBC has talked about 'children questioning their gender' which is the terminology of the guidance. I've been heartened by that.

JemimaTiggywinkles · 20/12/2023 00:38

@Hurrydash totally agree that politicians do what will win them votes. That makes me pleased because I think the average voter is on our side on this issue.

With Starmer I'm somewhat hopeful that he's clever enough to understand the real life implications of the self-id crap his party had been pedalling. While running for leader he refused to sign the trans pledge of allegiance. His nonsense about "some women have penises" always felt properly awkward to me - like he was obfuscating and didn't believe it. He comes across much better when he's telling the truth. Since being in power the top people in the party have kept a lot more quiet than before in their support for the extreme end of trans activism and nonsense like a male person as women's officer seems to have disappeared. The extremism in recent years has been coming from those on the fringes of the party.

Ultimately Labour are a party of the working class and will only win an election with our votes. And (as a working class woman) I know the vast majority of the women almost all of the men in my life are under no illusions whatsoever regarding the potential for dodgy men to exploit trans-friendly laws.

Starmer isn't my top choice for PM btw. Nor is Badenoch though - I'm not a single issue voter.

Hurrydash · 20/12/2023 01:27

JemimaTiggywinkles · 20/12/2023 00:38

@Hurrydash totally agree that politicians do what will win them votes. That makes me pleased because I think the average voter is on our side on this issue.

With Starmer I'm somewhat hopeful that he's clever enough to understand the real life implications of the self-id crap his party had been pedalling. While running for leader he refused to sign the trans pledge of allegiance. His nonsense about "some women have penises" always felt properly awkward to me - like he was obfuscating and didn't believe it. He comes across much better when he's telling the truth. Since being in power the top people in the party have kept a lot more quiet than before in their support for the extreme end of trans activism and nonsense like a male person as women's officer seems to have disappeared. The extremism in recent years has been coming from those on the fringes of the party.

Ultimately Labour are a party of the working class and will only win an election with our votes. And (as a working class woman) I know the vast majority of the women almost all of the men in my life are under no illusions whatsoever regarding the potential for dodgy men to exploit trans-friendly laws.

Starmer isn't my top choice for PM btw. Nor is Badenoch though - I'm not a single issue voter.

Yes well you may be right, but I won't trust Starmer unless and until he comes out fully in support of this initiative.

If he does great.

If not, he won't get my vote.

BTW this is not a single issue. It transcends many aspects of society including women's/ children's safety, freedom of speech, biological reality and on and on ...

Christmascountdownpanic · 20/12/2023 05:40

The brave women like JKR who called out the trans rubbish and pushed back with you cannot change your biological sex were abused and threatened but thankfully they stood their ground.

Biological fact is biological fact.

Professor Winston was insulted by a complete twat on a BBC programme when he stated biological facts. The twat said science had moved on and basically what did he know to applause from woke idiots.

Common sense is returning. Children need protection from adults who spout and promote this whilst they are children.

Christmascountdownpanic · 20/12/2023 05:42

wideawakeinthemiddleofthenightagain · 19/12/2023 20:46

I think it's important to acknowledge how important Maya Forstater, Alison Bailey and others have been in giving so many of us the confidence to know that we could safely talk about this in schools and realise that others were thinking the same way that we did. I'd already started raising my head above the parapet before then as I just couldn't understand the position being peddled by various groups but it was their cases which made me do that more publicly and loudly.

💯 this.

Christmascountdownpanic · 20/12/2023 05:46

RogersOrganismicProcess · 19/12/2023 13:47

If it is non-statutory, does that mean my daughter (yr10) may still be sharing the toilets and changing room with the biologically male, Yr 10 child who identifies as a female and lesbian? I was hoping this would mean that would change. Said child also does PE with them. Interesting that the F-M child also does PE, changes and toilets with the girls.

DD goes into school with her PE kit under her uniform as she is so uncomfortable.

Your poor daughter that's awful. Her rights and worries totally shoved aside by this boy who thinks he is a lesbian. Disgusting.

WarriorN · 20/12/2023 06:10

duc748 · 19/12/2023 18:20

Aren't the teaching unions fundamentally TWAW?

Not necessarily.

The loudest voices have dominated and those who have queried the status quo have been bullied into silence.

There are a lot of issues with this document but it does open the landscape for staff and parents to speak more openly about concerns.

And union leaders can now also reference with a more balanced view.

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WarriorN · 20/12/2023 06:15

A social work friend said that she was aware of the case of a social worker who was dragged through disciplinary action due to GC views done years ago and it had a horrific wider effect on SS as they felt unable to voice views and concerns.

If there's one thing this does, it stops the silence which has contributed to massive harms.

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MsGoodenough · 20/12/2023 06:15

theilltemperedclavecinist · 19/12/2023 19:40

Dr David Bell on C4 News just now. Wow! He's saying All The Things. Affirmation is wrong. Social contagion is a thing. I can't believe how things have turned around.

Is there a YouTube clip of this? I'd love to plaster it all over my Facebook.

RowanMayfair · 20/12/2023 07:37

I just thought I'd share: I'm a social work manager and do my best to be open and questioning about gender and my team are very open minded and take a very holistic and evidence based approach. We discuss the Tavistock, Hannah barnes, cass report etc. but that's only my team and my reach doesn't go too much further. However in my management group (one service manager and 4 team managers) we have also started having these conversations which showed that at least 3/5 of us feel the same - concerned about over reach and lack of evidence.

anyway. Yesterday we had a team Christmas lunch with service manager and a number of social workers. SM raised the new guidance and we discussed the issues around parental consent, sharing information, decision making around sharing info etc. From a social work perspective it's bizarre to us that information could have been kept from parents when we have such clear guidance about the parameters for withholding information from parents and the threshold that has to be met to withhold. The point of this long post is to share that the discussion was great. Please don't assume all social workers or departments are captured. We even discussed allsorts and the training we receive and criticised the affirmation approach. Openly in a large group of social workers and managers! It felt so liberating. And confidence building! This guidance couldn't come soon enough IMO but it's already having a positive impact.

WarriorN · 20/12/2023 07:41

That's brilliant @RowanMayfair.

As I said upthread I had the best conversation yet with my social worker friend.

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MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/12/2023 07:49

Thank you for this @RowanMayfair "From a social work perspective it's bizarre to us that information could have been kept from parents when we have such clear guidance about the parameters for withholding information from parents and the threshold that has to be met to withhold"

This is one of the most infuriating aspects. Partnership with parents is woven through safeguarding and social care guidance / legislation and to see so many bad faith actors in and outside education making wild inaccurate claims about this is so frustrating.

So pleased to hear that discussions are happening more widely. Never was the end of #nodebate more important.