Page 19 | Finally: Gender questioning children: draft schools and colleges guidance

MrsOvertonsWindow · 24/12/2023 08:06

So very sorry to read about what's happened with your daughter @BusyMummyWrites. That's absoultely devastating to read.

There's a growing rage at how this ideology and those promoting it are cynically using children. Hope you don't mind me suggesting this, but I'd be collating accounts of all the meetings, conversations with the school, do a formal Subject Access Request to get her records and then, if ever the time is right for her, use that information for a legal challenge. There are already class actions being taken by detransitioners and these will increase massively in the next 10 years as all these teenagers reach maturity and look at the wreckage of their lives caused by the adults cynically pushing this ideology at children.

SaffronSpice · 24/12/2023 08:08

Name5 · 23/12/2023 16:43

@pronounsbundlebundle thank you for your post. I have been in the 'hell' of a DC who wanted to transition for 8 years. If I hadn't fought like mad for my DC who would have had surgery long ago. Puberty blockers were a no as they were too late with that one.
In my experience all the noise comes from mtf (complete with penises and options open). It's the young girls who have irreversible surgery. They don't realise you can never have a functioning penis. You still pee from your vagina which is hidden behind a faux skin shape. Your breasts are gone and your womb. You're given testosterone that causes brittle bone disease.
Chloe Cole, Kiera Bell etc confirm. It is rare a woman can look like a man. We need to stop focusing on clothing especially in schools and see if that has a sea change. And also take filth of the tv and Internet.

You still pee from your vagina

No No No! Women do NOT pee from their vagina. If your urine exits via your vagina you have a fistula and need surgery to correct this. Thousands of women in the developing world who give birth without qualified support develop fistulas each year and become outcasts due to their incontinence. It is estimated there are a million women in need of such surgery.

Your urine exits from your urethra which sits in front of your vagina. To use the offensive terms of TRAs - it is your actual ‘front hole’.

SaffronSpice · 24/12/2023 08:18

The DBS has driven a coach and horses though the new guidance on the same day that it was announced:

A teacher has been banned from the profession for “misgendering” a pupil – with his ban coming through on the very same day the Government issued guidance to protect staff on trans issues, The Telegraph can reveal.

He was later referred to the Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS), which informed him that he would be banned from working with children on Dec 19.

The DBS concluded that Mr Lister had caused “emotional harm” to the student and would likely do so again if he was allowed to work with children in the future.

[The DBS said] “The decision to bar an individual is taken if there is evidence that the person has engaged in conduct that has harmed a child or adult or put them at risk of harm, and where there is a risk of recurrence. This is not strictly limited to physical harm but also psychological harm.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/23/teacher-is-banned-for-misgendering-pupil/

Teacher is banned for ‘misgendering’ pupil

Kevin Lister lost ‘best job in world’ on very day Government finally issues trans guidance

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/23/teacher-is-banned-for-misgendering-pupil/

BusyMummyWrites · 24/12/2023 08:39

MrsOvertonsWindow · 24/12/2023 08:06

So very sorry to read about what's happened with your daughter @BusyMummyWrites. That's absoultely devastating to read.

There's a growing rage at how this ideology and those promoting it are cynically using children. Hope you don't mind me suggesting this, but I'd be collating accounts of all the meetings, conversations with the school, do a formal Subject Access Request to get her records and then, if ever the time is right for her, use that information for a legal challenge. There are already class actions being taken by detransitioners and these will increase massively in the next 10 years as all these teenagers reach maturity and look at the wreckage of their lives caused by the adults cynically pushing this ideology at children.

I am absolutely keen to do this. I’ve chatted with Richie Herron and explored joining the class action but as my hubs is a high income earner adding us would have jeopardised the free funding of several of the other parties so the QC felt we’d be better to offer our experiences up via writing to Ms Cass and other bodies. And after the action is complete - and if it is successful - we can sue… we have been basically working to make sure our child is not medicalised or undergoes any surgeries before she is 25 (the crux of Richie’s case is to put in safeguards for all under 25s and those with ASD especially) and just hope that this wave has passed and she has built herself a life where this stuff is no longer a driving force.

Before this movement I had deep empathy for transexuals and no issue with sharing a changing room - or the hairdryer - with one, but those people I’ve encountered are not the people this movement is dominated by; people usually with tragic histories, deep psychological trauma for whom surgical/medical transition was a last resort; people who I’ve spoke to since who are horrified about what is going on and would not wish the lives and post-surgical discomfort/infections on a generation of children.

BusyMummyWrites · 24/12/2023 08:45

Name5 · 23/12/2023 16:43

@pronounsbundlebundle thank you for your post. I have been in the 'hell' of a DC who wanted to transition for 8 years. If I hadn't fought like mad for my DC who would have had surgery long ago. Puberty blockers were a no as they were too late with that one.
In my experience all the noise comes from mtf (complete with penises and options open). It's the young girls who have irreversible surgery. They don't realise you can never have a functioning penis. You still pee from your vagina which is hidden behind a faux skin shape. Your breasts are gone and your womb. You're given testosterone that causes brittle bone disease.
Chloe Cole, Kiera Bell etc confirm. It is rare a woman can look like a man. We need to stop focusing on clothing especially in schools and see if that has a sea change. And also take filth of the tv and Internet.

Just reaching out to offer a virtual hug. Am in that space too and stunned by the fact that SM has sold the lie of a functioning penis (mine mentioned that ‘soon they will be able to 3d print one), despite accounts of transitioners like Scott Newgent. And once you have been cast as a bigot by school staff, your kids never give credence to anything you say or any links/histories you signpost. Feel free to DM any time.

DameMaud · 24/12/2023 08:55

LoobiJee · 24/12/2023 06:23

I hadn’t read Helen Webberly’s entire web-post when I posted that. It gets worse.

“This mystery and fear is being fuelled by a group of people who are responsible for the pain that this hate, murder and death causes. Some of these people are leading our country”

Says the above, but fails to mention the death attributed to her husband’s lack of appropriate clinical care for a distressed young female patient. For which he was struck off the medical register. No sloganeering about her on Webberly’s website,

“No one child deserves any better treatment than another child. White, cisgender, able children do not need to be protected from any child that is black, trans or less abled simply because that is what they are.”

Jaw-dropping. Nothing is beneath her, is it. She uses mud-slinging to denigrate families seeking to protect their children from commercial drug-selling enterprises and other activist adults, by claiming that families are attacking other children rather than protecting them from zealots like her, and throws a claim of racism in the mix too. Fails to acknowledge the “disablism” of drugging gender-questioning children who are autistic, rather than supporting them with their autism.

“All children need to know that when they tell you something you will keep it confidential.”

Opposed to / doesn’t understand the basics of child safeguarding.

“To not believe children who are asking for your help and support, will end in pain, murder, death.”

I suppose that lies and hyperbole are the only way she can justify to herself her commercial decision to sell drugs which put children on a pathway to future sterilisation.

And don’t forget to finish on a slogan:

“Every trans adult was once a trans child.”

And the final line gets to the heart of why targeting children has been such a key part of the male sexual entitlement activists’ decades-long campaign to give adult males unfettered access to spaces where women and girls are in a state of undress. Because targeting children enables those adult males the opportunity to play the “born this way” card and attract sympathy. Of course, there’s no explanation on Webberly’s hormone-selling website of why the so called “trans adults” are predominantly male whereas the huge numbers of gender-questioning children we’ve seen in the last eight to ten years are predominantly female. If Webberly’s marketing slogan is true, where are all the middle aged female “trans adults”?

Spot on LoobiJee, with both of your posts there.
Thank you for reading, quoting, and breaking it down so well (I couldn't bring myself to read it!)

Cailleach1 · 24/12/2023 09:28

Karensalright · 23/12/2023 14:11

Hi folks asking for a somewhat startled friend, is it generally the case that young girls should refer to their vulva when talking about toileting….. etc?

I must admit, I’ve never heard a conversation from a four year old talking about wiping their vulva. I’ve never had, or heard, a conversation from any other girl/woman about wiping their vulva. Even with UTI’s etc.

Blinkin’ heck! Four year olds are being lumbered with this ‘gender identity’ stuff now.

LoobiJee · 24/12/2023 09:42

Your post is heartbreaking, busymummy. These adult zealots with no conscience inflicting harm on children and their families. That’s what Kemi Badenoch, Helen Joyce, and all the other women campaigning to protect children from this ideology are standing up against. And then Helen Webberly tries to defame distraught families as racists - just to protect this lucrative income stream she’s invented for herself.

I hope your daughter can find her way through this some how.

mids2019 · 24/12/2023 09:43

Do you think it should be made clear in PHSE classes that reproduction only occurs with 'real' penises and vagina/womb. Clear biology will instantly I would hope dispel notions of false.genitalia having anything but a superficial purpose without sexual function. You could also mention hormone concentrations in men and women and their complex nature and importantly the consequences of changing these.

Chariothorses · 24/12/2023 09:48

If you respond to the schools guidance, or have any contacts with powerful people (!), please raise the issue of children being left even more vulnerable to male abuse by the confusion caused by 'transwomen are women' beliefs forced on them by adults, including teachers at school-the result is directly enabling child abuse. eg the Amy/Andrew Miller case, where the little girl got into her male abuser's car as she thought he would be safe as he was trans, then got abducted and sexually abused . Media, teachers and police who lie to children that these men are women are directly enabling/ complicit in child abuse.

This issue was specifically raised by the child victim in her evidence. The Andrew/ Miller case is horrific and a clear example of what this lying is leading to- every child is having 'transwomen are women' drummed into them by activist teachers, media, internet, even the police, and some are getting abused as a result. Safeguarding and truth have been removed. And those same children- especially girls- including also children of transpeople- can't ask for help, even at school, due to the hostile environment for children who recognise reality/ need single sex spaces.

Original poster

WarriorN · 24/12/2023 09:54

HagoftheNorth · 24/12/2023 07:47

Yes, it is very disturbing that the BBC has published this piece of blatant propaganda. I hope they get challenged about why

*and schools week.

The news site for teachers.

OP posts:

Original poster

WarriorN · 24/12/2023 09:55

Excellent point @Chariothorses

@BusyMummyWrites I'm so extremely sorry that professionals have put you and your child in this position.

May I PM you?

OP posts:

Original poster

WarriorN · 24/12/2023 09:57

And also @Name5, it's an appalling failure of safeguarding and the way educators are blithely pretending it's not is sickening

OP posts:

LoobiJee · 24/12/2023 10:10

SaffronSpice · 24/12/2023 08:18

The DBS has driven a coach and horses though the new guidance on the same day that it was announced:

A teacher has been banned from the profession for “misgendering” a pupil – with his ban coming through on the very same day the Government issued guidance to protect staff on trans issues, The Telegraph can reveal.

He was later referred to the Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS), which informed him that he would be banned from working with children on Dec 19.

The DBS concluded that Mr Lister had caused “emotional harm” to the student and would likely do so again if he was allowed to work with children in the future.

[The DBS said] “The decision to bar an individual is taken if there is evidence that the person has engaged in conduct that has harmed a child or adult or put them at risk of harm, and where there is a risk of recurrence. This is not strictly limited to physical harm but also psychological harm.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/23/teacher-is-banned-for-misgendering-pupil/

If a teacher can be barred from working with children for using birth-sex pronouns then all those teachers who’ve socially transitioned pupils behind their parents’ backs should also be reported to the DBS and banned from working with children.

or teachers who have done this, busymummy “And once you have been cast as a bigot by school staff, your kids never give credence to anything you say or any links/histories you signpost.”

BusyMummyWrites · 24/12/2023 10:27

WarriorN · 24/12/2023 09:55

Excellent point @Chariothorses

@BusyMummyWrites I'm so extremely sorry that professionals have put you and your child in this position.

May I PM you?

Yes, WarriorN. Any time :)

BonfireLady · 24/12/2023 10:33

@BusyMummyWrites thank you for sharing your and your daughter's story. That was a difficult read and the school has behaved appallingly.
Sending a big virtual hug your way.

My daughter is 14, so a little younger than yours. Also ASD. Like you, I'm doing everything I can to mitigate the risk that she chooses to irreversibly damage her body when she's old enough to make autonomous decisions about her body. She still talks about wanting to remove her breasts when she's 18 and says she does not "feel like a girl". It was the school who started using a different (neutral-sounding) name for her, without telling us. This was relatively early on in the journey, prior to her mental health crisis. Thankfully, they were only using it in the autism unit at the time and asked us for permission before they made it her "known as" name across the whole school.

If this guidance had been in place [and statutorily enforced], we might have been able to create an extended environment of support that might have encouraged her to engage in therapy. Instead, it meant that her family were cast as bigots.

And once you have been cast as a bigot by school staff, your kids never give credence to anything you say or any links/histories you signpost.

This resonates a lot. I want to scream at the situation sometimes. In our case, it's taken over a year of careful and slow conversation with the school to get to where we are now. Luckily, I found an ally at the school early on and we were able to build safeguards in to her EHCP. But even that took effort, biting my tongue, choosing my words carefully. And even then, I'm conscious that the activist/ignorant members of staff are a risk to her. Without a whole school approach, from the top down, her personal paperwork is a very flimsy layer of protection.

Even though I have had a generally positive experience with the school, it's still me leading it. Not them. This has the same net effect that I'm seen as a bigot by my daughter if I bring the subject up, so I've had to back right off. When I have felt overwhelmed and scared about what she may do, I have debated on Mumsnet to learn more about the subject. Through debating, I've taught myself how to stay balanced in my approach despite my anger and fear. I've pushed myself to step in to uncomfortable places during debates so that I can truly listen to all viewpoints and build skills to stay as neutral sounding as possible. The more I have learned, the angrier I have felt about the impact of this contested belief being positioned as a truth.

It's the most ridiculous position to be in as a parent, when something as dangerous as this is impacting a whole generation. This schools' guidance will make a real tangible difference to the support network that surrounds the children who are caught up in this. There is more to do, to stop the impact of activist teachers and remove the teaching of gender identity belief as a fact, but it's a big step forward. I hope that every school leader who entrenches their position further, now that this is out for discussion, gets held to account for the harm that they are doing.

As for the BBC on the reporting of this, I'm now going to raise another complaint. This has to stop.

anyolddinosaur · 24/12/2023 11:01

Kevin Lister needs to appeal to the Upper Tribunal and if the decision is not reversed sue whoever reported him for defamation. If he needs a crowd funder I'll contribute to that. . And yes, report activist teachers to the DBS if they have harmed your child. .

Kemi needs to urgently look into the dbs and who is training the staff.

EasternStandard · 24/12/2023 11:13

anyolddinosaur · 24/12/2023 11:01

Kevin Lister needs to appeal to the Upper Tribunal and if the decision is not reversed sue whoever reported him for defamation. If he needs a crowd funder I'll contribute to that. . And yes, report activist teachers to the DBS if they have harmed your child. .

Kemi needs to urgently look into the dbs and who is training the staff.

It’s depressing. There are so many captured institutions it’s like plugging up a colander

Kemi is excellent on this but she stands out and I dread where we’ll be when no one fights it.

ArabellaScott · 24/12/2023 11:27

Yes, exactly, Eastern. And all these people who definitely don't actually 'buy' the theory that we are born with a gendered soul and can change sex to fit it, yet they'll grimly continue to enforce the absurdity.

pronounsbundlebundle · 24/12/2023 11:35

I don't think that judgement by the DBS can stand, if it can then all a child has to do is say 'Miss X caused me severe emotional harm by only giving me 28% in my assessment' get someone sympathetic to report and that's that.

'Emotional harm' is in this case being defined as doing something someone else doesn't like. If people can be barred from their job for life for having a different opinion to a child on a contested issue, then schools will eventually have to close.

IIRC Mr Lister did not ask the student to stop doing anything she was doing, he just refused compelled pronouns / speech. And raised safeguarding concerns.

It seems really he's been banned from working for raising safeguarding concerns more than anything else. Which is the opposite of what safeguarding is supposed to be.

If this stands, basically gender identity ideology has destroyed safeguarding in schools - and I'm beginning to believe that might have been the point.

Even if you believe in GI ideology - what if a Muslim child is 'emotionally distressed' if you're female and not covering your hair? Particularly for refugees, this could well be true (they may not have previously seen adult females with hair uncovered). It's a huge breach of basic freedoms for teaching staff.

I'll be donating for any appeal / JR.

Also, the DBS are utter evil, sick bastards and clearly give no real shit about kids in schools. SEND provision in schools is already on its knees in many places in part because you're expecting TAs to do an extremely difficult job with a lot of responsibility and sometimes physical risks for min wage. This is going to cause a haemorrhage of staff from schools once people realise.

pronounsbundlebundle · 24/12/2023 11:36

I wonder if that creepy Green candidate who made paedophile jokes on social media and posted porn has a DBS since he claimed to be a 'safeguarding lead'.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 24/12/2023 11:36

anyolddinosaur · 24/12/2023 11:01

Kevin Lister needs to appeal to the Upper Tribunal and if the decision is not reversed sue whoever reported him for defamation. If he needs a crowd funder I'll contribute to that. . And yes, report activist teachers to the DBS if they have harmed your child. .

Kemi needs to urgently look into the dbs and who is training the staff.

I noticed that countless people posting under the Telegraph article offered to contribute to a crowd funder

Name5 · 24/12/2023 11:40

Sorry to @SaffronSpice i mislabelled a body part. I am not very well atm.
I have researched the ftm/mtm as much as any of my degrees.
My DC lost her scholarship due to the idealogy. It was all consuming. Glitter families had appeared.
The best approach came from a head in a state school who said 'really, trans, join the club we've got loads. If she/he wants to be called father Christmas so what'. My DC had a good experience around university until year two. The abuse came from pupils. However no one in education pushed their agenda on her. We live rurally so perhaps that's why.
The loos are the problem in some spaces and like the pp any true transperson is not there to shock or embarrass.
@BusyMummyWrites i come from a family of lawyers and we do everything through a legal lense. I did say to my DD, OK find a UK based surgeon who will operate on you but don't ask me to sue them later on. She was 17 and to inherit. Funny no calls were made.
Teaching gender idealogy is not needed. It segregates people.
Nearly every teacher I know wears trousers. Why do we force natal girls into school skirts and object when a male child wants to wear one? The police don't wear skirts anymore. Why should we insist on restrictive clothing. Who's it for?
School has so much to teach. Human beings are many faceted and all valid. The more fuss teachers make the more people feed off it.

anyolddinosaur · 24/12/2023 11:44

Dont read the torygraph so I wouldnt know how to post there. Anyone who does can point out it wont just be their readers who would contribute.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 24/12/2023 11:51

pronounsbundlebundle · 24/12/2023 11:35

I don't think that judgement by the DBS can stand, if it can then all a child has to do is say 'Miss X caused me severe emotional harm by only giving me 28% in my assessment' get someone sympathetic to report and that's that.

'Emotional harm' is in this case being defined as doing something someone else doesn't like. If people can be barred from their job for life for having a different opinion to a child on a contested issue, then schools will eventually have to close.

IIRC Mr Lister did not ask the student to stop doing anything she was doing, he just refused compelled pronouns / speech. And raised safeguarding concerns.

It seems really he's been banned from working for raising safeguarding concerns more than anything else. Which is the opposite of what safeguarding is supposed to be.

If this stands, basically gender identity ideology has destroyed safeguarding in schools - and I'm beginning to believe that might have been the point.

Even if you believe in GI ideology - what if a Muslim child is 'emotionally distressed' if you're female and not covering your hair? Particularly for refugees, this could well be true (they may not have previously seen adult females with hair uncovered). It's a huge breach of basic freedoms for teaching staff.

I'll be donating for any appeal / JR.

Also, the DBS are utter evil, sick bastards and clearly give no real shit about kids in schools. SEND provision in schools is already on its knees in many places in part because you're expecting TAs to do an extremely difficult job with a lot of responsibility and sometimes physical risks for min wage. This is going to cause a haemorrhage of staff from schools once people realise.

My guess is that the adults in schools being punished for this get caught up in issues about failing to follow "school policy" which makes it easier to punish them. That's why the new guidance is so important as the influence of trans activism results in everyone being compelled to speak untruths. A general policy where it's clear that reality must not be denied will be very important.

It will be fought tooth and nail as the demands of adults wishing to breach privacy / safety boundaries and use children for their own purposes are currently prioritised.