Finally: Gender questioning children: draft schools and colleges guidance

[WarriorN]

Gender questioning children: draft schools and colleges guidance

consult.education.gov.uk/equalities-political-impartiality-anti-bullying-team/gender-questioning-children-proposed-guidance/

What is their understanding of their sex defined by?

I really want to answer this but want to know Tandora's views.

You could try google. But never mind, I've done it for you.

WPATH standards of care.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/26895269.2022.2100644

Eunuchs are covered in Chapter 9.

I read the article on the BBC, it seems that every minor change is going to be met with huge resistance from pressure groups and indoctrinated lawyers.

What I fail to understand is how any of this breaks the EA. My understanding is the gender reassignment in the act relates to medical transition (or legal status), so therefore not relevant to gender identity.

I was under the opinion that organisation like Stonewall deliberately mislead to say that gender identity is a protected characteristic in the EA when it isn't.

Aren't these lawyers referenced by the media (and where has BBC Verify gone?) misleading the public, particularly as they don't even say what part of the legislation breaks what part of the EA.

We don’t know. If we knew what causes atypical gender/sex identity development, we might have a more certain answer of that question, but we don’t. What we do know, however is that while genitals may be an (fairly) accurate proxy natal sex, they do not define sex/ gender identity.

there are young children who understand themselves to be female/ a girl , for example, who have a penis. They do not consider their penis to be contradictory to their understanding of themselves as female.

Genitals are also not significant in gender identity development in gender-typical children by the way. Most children have objective awareness about their physical bodies much earlier than they have a gender/ sex identity . Children as young as 1 are expected to be able to point to and label body parts, like their nose, for example.

My daughter (natal female before anyone freaks out) has a very strong sense of self as female/ a girl. She talks about it a lot. Never in the context of having a vulva. She knows she has a vulva and can label it. she’s really only interested in talking about her vulva as part of conversations about toileting, hygiene or health (eg I need to wipe my vulva). She talks about boys in her class, she doesn’t talk about their (or other) penises. I find all of this entirely appropriate and normal for her age (4),

Thank you. This is not as far as I can tell annything about children, however.

As I said, all children are different, but based on my research it is exceptionally rare for young children to have significant dysphoria around genitals , and certainly I have not come access advocacy for genital surgeries on pre pubescent children. I would not support this.

What's the definition of pre-pubescent children, considering that children are put on puberty blockers, aren't all those children forever pre-pubescent?

WPATH do suggest children can be treated for eunuch gender identity. This is why NHS Scotland had to report itself to the Police, because in linking to WPATH they inadvertently linked to a site that included graphic CSA material.

Indeed. Yet these are the two most important principles that underpin the document. Everything is written through these two lenses.

Despite it not being perfect, I'm very impressed at how the government has balanced the idea that people hold different beliefs with the safeguarding of children who are vulnerable (with specific links to the Cass Review). A difficult feat.The definitions of gender identity and gender questioning in the document are great. Copied here with my bold:

Gender identity: is a contested belief. It is a sense a person may have of their own gender, whether male, female or another category such as non-binary. This may or may not be the same as their biological sex. Many people do not consider that they or others have a gender identity at all.

Gender questioning: is a broad term that might describe children and young people who are asking questions about their biological sex and perceived gender identity.

Accommodating any of this as fact, given the above, makes as much sense as accommodating my example above of what Christianity as fact would look like.

WPATH advocate that pre-pubescent children should have genital surgery?

I’m thinking of it in terms of Children who have not yet reached sexual maturity. As I said, in my experience it would be exceptionally rare for a child to have significant dysphoria around genitals before this- not saying it’s not possible, but personally I have not come across it in the research.
Genitals (sometimes, but not always) come into the equation with the development of sexual maturity.

Protocols around puberty blockers are a separate issue to genital surgeries. The current NHS protocols are, in my opinion, a mes and much much more relevant/
pertinent than discussions about genitals when we are debating health provision for trans children.

(but transphobes always get distracted by genitals).

Hi folks asking for a somewhat startled friend, is it generally the case that young girls should refer to their vulva when talking about toileting….. etc?

What's the nature of your "research" @Tandora. Obviously not asking for outing details but noting that you have previously argued that trans ideology has been present in society for 100 years (think we're still waiting for some credible citations re that one) you seem to be quite invested in the notion of "trans" children?

Given that transactivists barred so much research re children (hence the catastrophic lack of data from GIDs despite them employing people to keep the stats and evidence) it's rare to have anyone arrive on here with any credible evidence that hasn't been previously debunked. Is your research NHS / based? Private healthcare based? Transactivist organisation based? Or perhaps "academia" - maybe of the Sally Hines / Grace Lavery field of influence?

Just asking in general terms. Thank you.

What we do know, however is that while genitals may be an (fairly) accurate proxy natal sex, they do not define sex/ gender identity.

So what does define someone's sex identity? Not genitals apparantly. Which btw is contrary to my experience with children, who are very 'daddy is a boy because he has a penis and I don't as I am a girl'-level. Or 'mummy is a girl because she grows a baby'.

And why do we need to teach children they have an identity based on their sex? Isn't it more 'you are a certain sex and that means your body will develop like this and this is what you can do because of that (be pregnant etc) -type of thing? What good or helpful is this sex identity to anyone?

Tandora, the diagnosis of gender dypshoria has 8 characteristics, 6 of those have nothing to do with the body. You only have to meet 4 to be diagnosed with gender dypshoria. Can you see why people are very wary of the idea a six year old can have gender dysphoria?

there are young children who understand themselves to be female/ a girl , for example, who have a penis. They do not consider their penis to be contradictory to their understanding of themselves as female.

What do these children think being female or being a girl means? You are talking about male children "understanding" themselves to be female (which they obviously are not). What do they think this means? What do they think makes someone male or female if not their body?

This is down to the failing of adults and lack of safeguarding around those pushing their TRA agenda.

What is their understanding of their sex defined by?

We do know.

It's a a mix of gender stereotypes absorbed from their environment (some commercial, some cultural such as names) and the fact that good eyfs professionals understand that there are boys and girls and refer accordingly.

The best practices make sure that the children do not think that the commercial and sexist cultural stereotypes are determinative (such as only girls can play with dolls or be a nurse and only boys can be a mechanic and play football ).

When my 5 year old was 2 he was calling some strange abstracted aliens in a space book mummies as they had enormous eyelashes and a dress. Gender stereotypes are so commonplace it's almost impossible to avoid them as small humans are so clever.

I've had to have the boys can have long hair chat with both my boys around 3.

My eldest was a v clever cookie and worked out that as a boy he couldn't breastfeed his doll so handed it to me to feed (I was still feeding him at the time.)

(When he was around 2)

You didn't answer the question.

Children who have been put on puberty blockers in early puberty and then go straight to cross sex hormones have never been through puberty, so they never reach sexual maturity. They remain pre-pubescent for their whole lives.

If sex dysphoria is rarely present before sexual maturity, then you must agree that children should never be put on puberty blockers, because they need to be sexually mature before deciding whether they are transsexual. And if their puberty is blocked they will never reach this stage.

If they are not distressed by their genitals, what is this dysphoria all about in children? Do children actually have sex dysphoria or is it that some children just react negatively to the stereotyping which is being imposed on them?

Yes, but again children cannot reach sexual maturity if they have their puberty blocked.

WPATH suggested that children can develop a eunuch identity' from the age of about 3 years old:

https://www.wpath.org/media/cms/Documents/SOC%20v8/SOC-8%20FAQs%20-%20WEBSITE2.pdf

"Eunuchs and eunuch-identified people have existed for millennia. Some eunuchs or eunuch-identified people experience dysphoria about their genitalia and desire that their reproductive organs be surgically removed or rendered non-functional. Due to social stigma and perhaps a lack of previous medical access and information, some eunuchs or eunuch-identified people may attempt to do this by themselves or with people who are not sufficiently trained, often leading to unfortunate outcomes"

https://reduxx.info/top-trans-medical-association-collaborated-with-castration-child-abuse-fetishists/

Do children actually have sex dysphoria or is it that some children just react negatively to the stereotyping which is being imposed on them?

This is the key part when it comes to children's understanding of their sex.
This video is on the Mermaids website as a "Film of interest" (hopefully that link works):

Here's the playlist link from Mermaids, which contains two other films, one of which is hidden by the looks of things: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIHJNBokxFUwQDSc4bsC5lSNz0iDmBqD&si=N1V1aAgHzYSJJjs1

It's particularly interesting IMO that Mermaids sees this as linked to gender identity. I actually remember watching the whole programme when it was first aired on the BBC. My takeaway then is the same as now: we don't necessarily realise the unconscious bias regarding sex-based stereotypes that happens when we interact with girls and boys. Extending that thought in relation to gender identity, it stands to reason that some children will feel that this enforced, implicit bias does not match how they feel. The bit I still can't understand is why Mermaids thinks that this helps justify affirming a child as transgender and putting them on a pathway to irreversible medical intervention.

If I've understood @Tandora correctly, by the age of two or three every child can tell male and female humans apart, and has formed a conclusion as to which of the two groups he or she belongs to (eg 'like mummy' or 'like daddy'), irrespective of genitals.

If so, why is sex incongruence not easily perceived and diagnosed at that time, rather than appearing much later on, typically when the individual realises they are gay, or like cross-dressing, or have mental health problems expressed as hatred of the physical self? Why is it disproportionately common in CSA survivors?

The trans people I know talk about a vague sense of something wrong, and gradually realising what. They transitioned later in life. What is going on there?

The trans people I know talk about a vague sense of something wrong, and gradually realising what. They transitioned later in life. What is going on there?

Are these middle-aged males? If so, Malaga Airport is what's going on. The stuff about their childhood is just filling in a backstory to sanitise the truth.

Some. And also some adult lesbians with MH problems. Even so I'd like to know what @Tandora thinks. Is there a 'true' trans?