GC Feminism and Gaza/Israel

[auberginefortea]

I haven't seen a thread on this yet, and I'm genuinely interested to understand the intersection between different political stances. Where do most posters in this forum stand on Israel/Palestine?

From what I've seen, Julie Bindel has taken quite a strong stance in supporting Israel on Twitter/X. The TRAs I've seen seem to be a lot more pro Gaza/Palestine and anti-Israel.

Is there an intersection between views on gender and Israel/Palestine?

Personally, I'm GC (though not especially strident, more bemused and baffled) and my sympathies naturally lie with Israel (I'm a zionist in that I believe in Jewish State), but I also worry that Israel is going too far.

My personal feeling is that all wars are awful for women and I suspect that both sides are being driven to fight by arrogant and violent men. I don’t see any sign that one side has right on their side or that either side is fighting for justice. I don’t think the conflict should ever have occurred, but those who started the process are long dead and those alive now should be looking for a way to resolve the mess their forebears made and find a way to peace.

I'm not sure Julie Bindel is a Zionist. I think she has a particular concern with student politics and its groupthink, public shamings, thought terminating cliches &c. Left-wing student politics has had an intense preoccupation with Israel / Palestine for longer than I've been alive.

I don’t think there is much of an intersection do I don’t expect all GC feminists to agree on non-GC issues.

That said, I’m pretty sure all feminists are outraged at the use of rape and sexual torture as a weapon of war.

Women always suffer in war. We are just ‘collateral damage’ to the men waging war.

I’m a GC feminist and my sympathies are with Israel. As a woman I know where I’d be best off in the Middle East. The whole “Queers for Palestine” thing is laughable, they wouldn’t last 5 minutes there.

Hamas must be eradicated for the good of everyone, they don’t care how many Palestinian lives are lost in their quest to destroy Israel and Jews.

Only personal experience, but there definitely seems to be an intersection between those who have been known to blindly chant ‘kill terfs’ and those who now blindly chant ‘from the river to the sea’.

Starting to think they are just impotently angry little twerps looking for any chance to join a herd and hate something.

I’m disappointed by how the media has been so coy about what actually happened on 7th October, and about how Hamas celebrated and said they would do the same again. Hamas still hold hostages, the sexual violence against them may well still be ongoing, Hamas still fire into Israel. I realise it is hugely distressing, but without that context, it’s difficult to understand the Israeli response. I don’t see how they can just pretend all that didn’t happen. GC feminists are interested in women, and used to doing their own research.

I also abhor the settler violence in the West Bank, and I think the impacts on the Gazan population are absolutely horrific. Both of these are highly likely to lead to more violence against Israel in the future, I don’t think this is the best outcome that was available on 7th October for anyone.

I do find it shocking that there are protests unquestioningly supporting Gaza without any apparent recognition of what happened in Israel. More interestingly, numerous Muslims I know or have overheard chatting are astonished at what some see as unquestioning white support for Hamas - and they don’t think of that as a good thing

I am outraged at the use of rape and torture. The events of October 7th were shocking.
I am also uncomfortable with Israel’s behaviour over the years which (see also below) hasn’t necessarily helped foster peace in the region
i am highly concerned at the rhetoric to remove Israel as a state, and my perception that the countries surrounding Israel are also not fostering peaceful outcomes
international support and proactive engagement to help a peaceful resolution over the years has been sporadic to say the least
creating a 2 state solution which also splits Gaza and the West Bank does not feel workable. If a 2 state solution is to be arrived at it needs to create a proper Palestinian territory and all concerned need also to recognise Israel
rights of women under also need to be promoted
Much of this is unrelated to GC!

I’m disappointed by how the media has been so coy about what actually happened on 7th October, and about how Hamas celebrated and said they would do the same again.

I really don't think they have. You can't go putting the videos on the 6 o'clock news but it was widely reported at the time and since.

Anyone with the slightest sympathy for Hamas is being willfully ignorant or is blinded by hatred.

Much of this is unrelated to GC

While I agree on the surface, this has little to do with one's position on sex and gender, I suspect that there are common values that incline groups to think in certain ways.

For those who are adamantly pro-palestinian, I suspect there is a tendency for binary / victim-oppressor thinking which can spill over into pro-TRA thinking. Whereas I tend to see that both sides in Israel and Palestine are victims, and while I can feel sympathy for people who let's say feel confused about their gender, I can support the absolute need to protect women-only spaces.

I’m a GC feminist and I do not support the Israeli government, the IDF, or their actions. I also deplore the actions of Hamas, with Oct 7th being particularly horrific. I have extreme empathy for the Palestinian population who are caught up in this. The attacks on civilian sites have been deplorable.

Part of the problem is that Oct 7th is pushed by many media sources as the beginning of this, but the issue goes back decades. Hamas cannot be destroyed, it’s an ideology and Israel’s actions will only be strengthening Hamas’s power among sympathetic populations. Hamas also cannot exist in a vacuum and whilst ‘democratically’ elected, the appetite for doing so comes from the lack of power over their situation felt by Palestinian people.

Israel and Hamas (and to some extent Palestine) just want to obliterate each other, but a problem is that Israel has the backing of the west (namely US and U.K.) and Palestine (and by default Hamas) the backing of other countries.

I am definitely not a Zionist, and whilst I am sympathetic to the Jewish population’s desire and need for a homeland, I have always been vehemently opposed to religious rule, not just in Israel, but eg also in Iran.

I am generally disgusted by the number of civilian casualties - Oct 7th was horrific, but this bombardment is also horrific.

as an occupying power Israel has a duty of care to Palestinian populations but has shown the opposite for such a long time now. I find the hypocrisy from a population who have endured atrocity and persecution very difficult to reconcile in my mind.

don, yet I’ve seen people commenting about the rapes as an attempt to impregnate Israeli women.

Rape for that purpose isn’t gang rape so violent it leaves women’s pelvises broken; it isn’t conducted with knives and other implements; and it isn’t followed up by mutilation and then murder. There is a reason that some of the witnesses were so traumatised that they committed suicide. I didn’t see anything which even came close to suggesting the horror on MSM

I don't see any connection between GC views and opinions on the Middle East.

I've been broadly sympathetic to Palestine for years but that preceded my awareness of trans ideology.

I thought the October 7th massacres were horrific at the time and the awful details that have come out since regarding torture and rape have strengthened that.

At the same time, I am still opposed to the illegal Israeli settlements and the way that settlers have been treating the Palestinians for decades.

Benjamin Netanyahu is very right wing and there were protests against his government within Israeli, long before the October Hamas atrocities.

An Israeli government led by more moderate politicians might have focused on targeting Hamas terrorists and trying to save Israeli hostages rather than engaging in genocide which is what the rocket attacks on Palestinian civilians are amounting to.

I’m GC, anti Zionist and very much pro Palestinian. Nothing about how I feel about the appalling treatment of Palestinians over the last 70 years could spill over into pro TRA thinking, that would make no sense.

Agree. I normally tend to an anti-zionist anti-hamas pro-peace stance.

I am beyond livid and shocked at what happened on 7th Oct and am not making any of my usual "rise above it, Israel" comments because the acts of violence against women are among the most awful sex-based war crimes I've ever seen.

So now? I am watching and waiting and will try to contribute donations to aid after the fact.

This seems to be a war against innocents on each side. All my sympathy is with women and children who are victims of the violence (including raped and mutilated female IDF)

I think trying to pigeon hole people into taking 'sides' is hugely divisive.

Im sure Im not alone in not seeing a 'side' to take. Its so complex with lots of layers.

Im gender critical and I side with the children caught up in this mess who are wholly innocent and are the collateral damage in most wars. Those that survive will be traumatised beyond measure and we'll all be surprised when they hate Israel (and by extension the US and U.K.) in 15 years time.

In my opinion harming a baby or young child, like the babies that were left alone to die in that hospital in Gaza and the children killed on the kibbutz, is literally the very personification of evil. Once you cross that line you should no longer have the support of anybody.

Also it's important to remember most Palestinians aren't Hamas. Many Israeli Jews do not support the Israeli government yet both are suffering for their actions.

When men in power wage wars those with the least power suffer the most and I don't think it's helpful ever to see it as a case of 'sides'. I've more in common with a working class mum mum in Gaza, Isreal, Russia and Ukraine that I have with any of the people who make the decisions about going to war.

The main overlap I have seen is that the feminist organisations who support men over women on GC matters are the same who seem to be glossing over what has happened to Israeli women. More so with groups in the US/Canada, but also UN Women who took a long time to condemn the violence.

Éowyn had it right in one sentence “The women of this country learned long ago, those without swords can still die upon them.”

Women and children (and the weak, disabled, elderly etc) have always been the casualties of men's violence and wars. And my sympathy is always entirely with them.

I’m disappointed by how the media has been so coy about what actually happened on 7th October, and about how Hamas celebrated and said they would do the same again. Hamas still hold hostages, the sexual violence against them may well still be ongoing, Hamas still fire into Israel. I realise it is hugely distressing, but without that context, it’s difficult to understand the Israeli response. I don’t see how they can just pretend all that didn’t happen. GC feminists are interested in women, and used to doing their own research.

I also abhor the settler violence in the West Bank, and I think the impacts on the Gazan population are absolutely horrific. Both of these are highly likely to lead to more violence against Israel in the future, I don’t think this is the best outcome that was available on 7th October for anyone.

I do find it shocking that there are protests unquestioningly supporting Gaza without any apparent recognition of what happened in Israel. More interestingly, numerous Muslims I know or have overheard chatting are astonished at what some see as unquestioning white support for Hamas - and they don’t think of that as a good thing

This.

As well as agreeing with the above I also think that those commenting should be aware of historical facts (such as that the Jews have always lived in the region known as Palestine), understand what Zionism actually is, and that it has variants, and where it came from (and so on). There is so much disinformation on the internet and elsewhere and people are reacting emotionally and without the facts and real understanding.

Beyond this, as a non-Jew, I really detect the presence of anti-Semitism which fits like an old glove and is in the ether. I see so many similarities with misogyny.

just to be clear, @YetAnotherSpartacus are you accusing posters on this thread of anti-semitism?

No. I’m not sure how you read that!

no i just wanted to check - because i keep reading about how much AS has increased, including here on MN, and i don't always spot it because it never really crosses my radar (what i mean is: i am not Jewish, i don't know many people, and it never occurs to me that things that are seen by those in the know as AS are in fact AS. IYSWIM?)

For anyone wanting to think more about the effects of war, conflict International Relations affects women in many different ways, i can thoroughly recommend Cynthia Enloe. She has lots of YouTube videos, and Bananas, Bombs & Beaches was one of the best books I've ever read on the topic of IR.

Cynthia Enloe = blast from the second wave past!

There is a lot of quite blatant AS on the Conflict in the ME board.

@ohfook

Also it's important to remember most Palestinians aren't Hamas. Many Israeli Jews do not support the Israeli government yet both are suffering for their actions.

However, the polling does show strong Palestinian support for the attack on Israel.

Also, some polling from 2009:

"Bin Laden also has the support of most Muslims in the Palestinian territories (52%), but a much more solid majority of Palestinian Muslims had confidence in him in 2003 (72%)."

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2009/09/10/rejection-of-extremism/