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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

James Esses - UKCP settles

106 replies

ArthurbellaScott · 11/12/2023 13:39

From Esses' crowdfunder:

'I am pleased to announce a very positive update. I have agreed a settlement with the United Kingdom Council for Psychotherapy (UKCP) in my claim against them.
Although I am not in a position to reveal the terms of settlement, I can say that I am extremely happy with them.
UKCP have also published a formal statement, which reads as follows:
'UKCP recognises that gender-critical beliefs (that sex is both binary and immutable) are protected under the Equality Act 2010. UKCP also recognises the validity of the professional belief that children suffering from gender dysphoria should be treated with explorative therapy, rather than being affirmed towards irreversible and potentially damaging medical intervention. Psychotherapists and counsellors accredited by UKCP are fully entitled to hold such beliefs and any discrimination against them on this basis, including by UKCP-accredited training organisations, is unlawful.’
^^
This is an extremely important statement, which I hope will ensure that what happened to me will never happen to another trainee therapist. It sends a clear message to therapeutic training course providers that if they discriminate against their students for believing in biological reality or child safeguarding, they will be held accountable.
With that in mind, although my case against UKCP has concluded, I will be continuing my litigation against the Metanoia Institute for expelling me from my Masters’ degree after I spoke out about concerns regarding gender ideology and child safeguarding.'

OP posts:
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CuriousAlien · 12/12/2023 22:37

Just mad. So deluded.

RaininginDarling · 12/12/2023 23:29

Saying the quiet bit out loud, I see: the activists are going after the basic fundamentals of therapy. All therapy is exploratory.

guinnessguzzler · 13/12/2023 07:03

Precisely. What on earth else is the point of it?!

HelenFisksBrownSuit · 13/12/2023 08:45

TRA: The point of therapy is to validate my identity which means affirmation. Anything else is conversion therapy.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/12/2023 09:32

The well adjusted posters of Reddit have their say on this:

www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/s/XDWpmi74Iv

CuriousAlien · 13/12/2023 09:43

Ok now I'm depressed by all this.
I dug a bit and found this open letter from November written to the UKCP in response to a statement they'd put out then which was very similar to the statement required to settle with James Esses.

https://openletter.earth/open-letter-to-ukcp-about-their-guidance-regarding-so-called-gender-critical-views-c71ce5d6

This letter is signed by many people from the psychotherapy world, including some I love and know to be good people. This is what is depressing.

The letter essentially says:
affirmation therapy is exploratory
'exploratory' therapy is conversion therapy

I could almost cope with these linguistic twists because it would explain why intelligent and sensitive people have signed it

but most worryingly the letter states that holding gc beliefs (e.g. sex is binary, sex is immutable, sex is different to gender identity) makes a therapist unsafe and inappropriate to work with trans or gender diverse clients.

This is just wrong. And insane. What is all this? There is some powerful mechanism at work dividing people here. I don't want to be in a "gc" camp, otherwise how are we ever going to sort this mess out? But if James Esses (and others) hadn't done what he did then who knows where we'd be.

Sorry if this is a derail. I don't have the stomach to start my own thread.

Open letter to UKCP about their guidance regarding so-called ‘gender-critical’ views

https://openletter.earth/open-letter-to-ukcp-about-their-guidance-regarding-so-called-gender-critical-views-c71ce5d6

guinnessguzzler · 13/12/2023 10:19

They've lost their minds. Honestly I genuinely don't understand how this fits with counselling or therapy at all. Any other situation where someone wants to drastically alter their body, feels deeply unhappy in themself, wants to control how others perceive them or respond to them and counselling would be recommended to help work through those feelings. Sometimes it still might lead to physical changes eg getting ears pinned due to not being able to accept ears as they are (I say this as someone who grew in to my ears and has a child with the same) but sometimes it might lead to realising the ears aren't the issue at all. Why is it that with trans we are supposed to just accept all this negative mental health is simply because of some kind of biological mishap that we can't explain and even then that the answer is for everyone to agree the person has a body they don't have or even change their body to as close an a approximation as possible? Because someone says they're trans. And the diagnostic criteria, as far as I can tell, are simply that they say they are. So I go to my doctor and tell her I'm deeply depressed, I hate the way others see me, I hate the way I look and I want my breasts removed and I get solid mental health support including counselling to explore all of that and help me recover, but if I add that I think all of that is because I'm actually a man, I get a few weeks of counselling where the therapist affirms my every thought and then get hormones and a double mastectomy. I will never ever understand it as long as I live.

Apollo441 · 13/12/2023 11:13

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/12/2023 09:32

The well adjusted posters of Reddit have their say on this:

www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/s/XDWpmi74Iv

Quote from Reddit
"sex isn't binary at all, how can the equality act be used to protect people choosing to refuse to learn? 🥴"

These people are beyond hope.

ArthurbellaScott · 13/12/2023 11:21

CuriousAlien · 13/12/2023 09:43

Ok now I'm depressed by all this.
I dug a bit and found this open letter from November written to the UKCP in response to a statement they'd put out then which was very similar to the statement required to settle with James Esses.

https://openletter.earth/open-letter-to-ukcp-about-their-guidance-regarding-so-called-gender-critical-views-c71ce5d6

This letter is signed by many people from the psychotherapy world, including some I love and know to be good people. This is what is depressing.

The letter essentially says:
affirmation therapy is exploratory
'exploratory' therapy is conversion therapy

I could almost cope with these linguistic twists because it would explain why intelligent and sensitive people have signed it

but most worryingly the letter states that holding gc beliefs (e.g. sex is binary, sex is immutable, sex is different to gender identity) makes a therapist unsafe and inappropriate to work with trans or gender diverse clients.

This is just wrong. And insane. What is all this? There is some powerful mechanism at work dividing people here. I don't want to be in a "gc" camp, otherwise how are we ever going to sort this mess out? But if James Esses (and others) hadn't done what he did then who knows where we'd be.

Sorry if this is a derail. I don't have the stomach to start my own thread.

Thanks. That's not a derail at all. It's worth reading that letter.

'The ‘gender-critical’ belief that sex is binary and immutable translates into a belief that trans identities are not valid.'

That sentence escalated quickly. No, it doesn't.

OP posts:
ArthurbellaScott · 13/12/2023 11:22

What does it even mean to say that an identity is 'valid'?

OP posts:
ArthurbellaScott · 13/12/2023 11:22

'How can a therapist, who does not believe that a trans person is who they define themselves to be, conduct therapy ‘without any preconceptions or pre-decided theoretical framework regarding the person’s gender identity’ (UKCP statement)?'

They mean that a therapist is duty bound to believe that a man is a woman if he says he is.

This is flat out insanity.

OP posts:
ArthurbellaScott · 13/12/2023 11:31

Okay, that's a very long and batshit letter. I ended up skimming. But it's full of logical holes, couched in prose that manages to give the appearance of verging on reasonable. It's very biased and pushes lots of untruths.

The first signatory is all about 'queering therapy'. This is the last paper she has co authored.

CPN/SAFPAC Conference 2022: 2. Dr Julian-Pascal Saadi and Erene Hadjiioannou

Dr Julian-Pascal Saadi and Erene Hadjiioannou - Queer Minds Queer NeedsEqual access to mental healthcare is a right held by all Britons, yet evidence suggest...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3Fyt3cj6qI

OP posts:
Froodwithatowel · 13/12/2023 12:38

Affirmation therapy -

where a therapist does exactly and only what the patient says and tells them, and places the immediate wants of the experience above any insight, need or intention to progress.

That's not a therapist, that's the job of a casual mate. Who doesn't care enough to tell you any difficult truths. Why bother with a trained therapist when what you want is a yes-person entirely under your control?

These people are so bloody terrified not to be in total control of everyone and everything and every word said all the time. Which requires actual therapy, not trying to rush around forcing reality and everyone in it into line. Which is a strategy that at best is going to be a never ending game of whackamole and a lot of stress with a failed end result, because you cannot control reality or control everyone else's thoughts, words, actions, participation in your personal issues. Which makes me wonder is it really about a successful end goal of total compliance, or is it really about needs being met through the fighting and testing for compliance, and constantly being given reasons to kick off and shout at everyone for failing you?

WickedSerious · 13/12/2023 12:56

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/12/2023 09:32

The well adjusted posters of Reddit have their say on this:

www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/s/XDWpmi74Iv

They're not the sort of people you'd bring home to meet mother are they?

SinnerBoy · 13/12/2023 12:59

They seem to be somewhat detached from reality.

PatatiPatatras · 13/12/2023 20:57

If they feel that strongly about it, they should stop trying to circumvent the law through peer pressure letters and sue the ukcp for negligence or whatever else they can throw at it.
Bring it.

RainWithSunnySpells · 13/12/2023 21:10

ArthurbellaScott · 13/12/2023 11:22

What does it even mean to say that an identity is 'valid'?

'The ‘gender-critical’ belief that sex is binary and immutable translates into a belief that trans identities are not valid.'

I have a horrible feeling that this is about being able to force people to affirm the new identity, use the desired pronouns, and have no ablity to push back against the use of the wrong single sex facilities.

If the identity is valid, then all must obay.

Froodwithatowel · 13/12/2023 21:44

My belief that someone's expression of inner self isn't something I unconditionally will say and act as if I believe in 'invalidates' it?

How is that my problem? Where is the reciprocality here? If it can't exist without me playing along then there is an issue isn't there? It's a bit 'every time you say you don't believe in fairies somewhere one falls down dead' Peter Pan. And why does that person's reality and beliefs trump mine? Why is it ok for them to invalidate my views but I can't say anything to disturb theirs? Why do I have to live their lie for them? I am not their mum, nor their therapist.

Believe whatever you like, have whatever faith you like, leave me out of it and practice religious tolerance, and we'll all get on fine.

HelenFisksBrownSuit · 15/12/2023 13:54

"It's the T that complicates things"
x.com/FamEdTrust/status/1735005001460637968?s=20

catduckgoose · 15/12/2023 14:10

Some of the more unhinged comments from Reddit, this is presumably their twisted reaction to Esses speaking out against "gender-affirming" mastectomy on troubled teenage girls:

"Guys an absolute freak, sexual harasser and obsessed with performing conversion therapy on kids, especially vulnerable kids (this is why he was blacklisted from working with Childline). Mark my words, giving this psycho nonce a position of power over children WILL result in abuse, probably sexual abuse."

"He is also obsessed with prepubescent breasts and has been writing for years about prepubescent breasts and the need to preserve them from the evils of being removed and if that from a straight 30 year old man doesn't ring warning bells..."

"So, he's in the least a viewer of kiddy porn if not more, and because of that he needs to be behind bars where the inmates will take care of him in their own way - someone I used to know through a friend got stuck in jail for exactly that offence, let's just say I haven't heard from him since."

WickedSerious · 15/12/2023 18:50

They seem nice and stable don't they?

guinnessguzzler · 15/12/2023 19:57

Such a revealing comment ... basically, straight guy expresses concern about young women, can't possibly be because he actually cares, what man would care about any women?, so he must really be a paedo. Wtf is wrong with these people?!

Apollo441 · 15/12/2023 20:20

guinnessguzzler · 15/12/2023 19:57

Such a revealing comment ... basically, straight guy expresses concern about young women, can't possibly be because he actually cares, what man would care about any women?, so he must really be a paedo. Wtf is wrong with these people?!

He was training to be a psychiatrist and has a ethical duty of care. Expressing his concern makes him a pedophile in the trans supporters world. As you say, WTF is wrong with these people? Unhinged doesn't get anywhere near covering it.

PatatiPatatras · 15/12/2023 22:39

A: Let's talk about nipples - how to yeet the teet, bind them or grow a pair.

B: Hang on A, you are talking to children.

A: Paedo!

The inmates are running the asylum.

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